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-   -   Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle (https://www.ablemuse.com/erato/showthread.php?t=17542)

William A. Baurle 04-17-2012 03:30 AM

Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle
 
While reading an excellent sonnet sequence by Maxine Kumin, called Sonnets Uncorseted, at the Poetry Foundation website, I was compelled to google a name referenced by Kumin, Margaret Cavendish, and was taken to a site called Emory Women Writers' Resource. This site contains a series called Atomic Poems in a book Cavendish published in 1653 called Poems, and Fancies.

I was amazed, not so much by the versifying, which is very good, but by the scientific and philosophical insights of this enlightened author in an age when it was considered unfeminine for women to engage in writing, even in thinking deeply about the world!

I felt it would be remiss not to offer up a few of Cavendish's poems for perusal by the fine people here at the Sphere. I wonder also if it will strike others, as it struck me, how the very things she is speaking of are being argued about at this very moment on hundreds of bulletin boards across the Internet as well as in the hallowed halls of Academia, where thinkers like Susan Haack, for example (she is one of many), are occasionally held to account for the mere accident of being female.

Here are a few samples of Margaret Cavendish's work, from 1653:


Quote:

The Infinites of Matter

If all the World were a confused heape,
What was beyond? for this World is not great:
We finde it Limit hath, and Bound,
And like a Ball in compasse is made round:
And if that Matter, with which the World's made,
Be infinite, then more Worlds may be said;
Then Infinites of Worlds may we agree,
As well, as Infinites of Matters bee.

*

In the Center Atomes never Separate


Just at the Center is a point that's small,
Those Atomes that are there are wedg'd in all;
They lye so close, firme in one Body binde,
No other Forme, or Motion can unwinde:
For they are wreath'd so hard about that point,
As they become a Circle without joynt.


*

Motion is the Life of all things.

As darknesse a privation is of Light;
That's when the Optick Nerve is stopt from Light:
So Death is even a cessation in
Those Formes, and Bodies, wherein Motions spin.
As Light can only shine but in the Eye,
So Life doth only in a Motion lye.
Thus Life is out, when Motion leaves to bee,
Like to an Eye, that's shut, no Light can see.


*

Of the Subtlety of Motion

Could we the severall Motions of Life know,
The Subtle windings, and the waies they go:
We should adore God more, and not dispute,
How they are done, but that great God can doe't.
But we with Ignorance about do run,
To know the Ends, and how they first begun.
Spending that Life, which Natures God did give
Us to adore him, and his wonders with,
With fruitlesse, vaine, impossible pursuites,
In Schooles, Lectures, and quarrelling Disputes.
But never give him thanks that did us make,
Proudly, as petty Gods, our selves do take.


*

Motion and Figure

A Figure Spherical, the Motion's so,
Streight Figures in a darting Motion go:
As severall Figures in small Atomes bee,
So several Motions are, if we could see.
If Atomes joyne, meet in another Forme,
Then Motion alters as the Figures turne.
For if the Bodies weighty are, and great,
Then Motion's slow, and goes upon lesse feet.
Out of a Shuttle-cocke a feather pull,
And flying strike it, as when it was full;
The Motion alters which belongs to that,
Although the Motion of the hand do not.
Yet Motion, Matter, can new Figures find,
And the Substantial Figures turne and wind.
Thus severall Figures, severall Motions take,
And severall Motions, severall Figures make.
But Figure, Matter, Motion, all is one,
Can never separate, not be alone.


*

Motion directs, while Atomes dance

Atomes will dance, and measures keep just time;
And one by one will hold round circle line,
Run in and out, as we do dance the Hay;
Crossing about, yet keepe just time and way:
While Motion, as Musicke directs the Time:
Thus by consent, they altogether joyne.
This Harmony is Health, makes Life live long;
But when they're out, 'tis death, so dancing's done.


*

The agreement of some kinde of Motion, with some kinde of Atomes


Some Motion with some Atomes well agree;
Fits them to places right, as just may bee.
By Motions helpe, they so strong joyne each to
That hardly Motion shall againe undo.
Motions inconstancy oft gives such power
To Atomes, as they can Motion devoure.


*

Atomes and Motion fall out

When Motion, and all Atomes disagree,
Thunder in Skies, and sicknesse in Men bee,
Earthquakes, and Windes which make disorder great,
Tis when that Motion all the Atomes beate.
In this confusion a horrid noise they make,
For Motion will not let them their right places take.
Like frighted Flocks of Sheepe together run,
Thus Motion like a Wolfe doth worry them.

- Cavendish, Margaret (Lucas).

William A. Baurle 04-26-2012 02:55 AM

Wow, 12 pages for Mr. Lister and not a single word for Margaret Cavendish?

Nothing at all? No thoughts whatsoever? I guess I misplaced this thread. I'll grant, she's no Pope or Dryden, but I think her memory deserves more than to be utterly ignored in this highly trafficked venue which celebrates formal verse.

Could it be because the Cavendish poems have no punchlines?

Mark Blaeuer 04-26-2012 08:32 AM

I missed this the first time, only saw it this morning. Thanks for the bump and the original post. She's obviously a fascinating person, and while I'm no scholar of literature, I'll say that the first thing that occurred to me while reading these was the apparent influence of Lucretius. I know Dryden had a translation around that time (I've read this morning that she claims not to have known any language but English). I've also read that Lucy Hutchinson did one even before he did, but it wasn't published until recently. Do we know whether Cavendish might have been aware of the Hutchinson version?

Sorry for the shallowness of my response, but I figured I'd help get the ball rolling.

William A. Baurle 04-26-2012 09:43 AM

Thanks, Mark. No, your response wasn't shallow at all. And you probably know as much about this author as I do after your reading of her, so I don't know if she knew of the translations you mention.

I wish I hadn't have put my last post up. I get into these moods at certain times, where I feel that some really talented people have gotten the fuzzy end of the lollypop when it comes to posterity. Ms. Cavendish certainly falls into that category.

Yes, it certainly looks like Lucretius is there. As well as Newton**. But here is a bit from the Emory site, from the intro to her book:

Quote:

IF any Philosophers have written of these Subjects, as I
make no question, or doubt, but they have, of all that
Nature hath discover'd, either in meere Thought, and Spe-
culation, or other waies in Observation; yet it is more then
I know of: for I never read, nor heard of any English Booke
to Instruct me: and truly I understand no other Language;not
French, although I was in France five years.Neither do I un-
derstand my owne Native Language very well; for thereare
many words, I know not what they signifie; so as I have one-
ly the Vulgar part, I meane, that which is most usually spoke. I
do not mean that which is us'd to be spoke by Clownes in e-
very Shire, where in some Parts their Language is knowne to
none, but those that are bred there. And not onely every Shire
hath a severall Language, but every Family, giving Marks for
things according to their Fancy. But my Ignorance of the Mother
Tongues makes me ignorant of the Opinions, and Discourses in
former times; wherefore I may be absurd, and erre grossely. I can-
not say, I have not heard of Atomes, and Figures, and Motions
and Matter; but not throughly reason'd on: but if I do erre,
it is no great matter; for my Discourse of them is not to be ac-
counted Authentick: so if there be any thing worthy of no-
ting, it is a good Chance; if not, there is no harm done, nor
time lost.
After looking at that, it would appear to me that either the woman was the receiver of Divine revelation, along the lines of a Julian of Norwich (if such things are to be believed, which I do), or that some kind of hoax was afoot. A different author giving Cavendish the credit? I doubt the latter, since I can't see what possible use such a thing would have, unless it be a very early push for feminism, which seems even less likely; but that leaves the former, which not too many people would be open to, except for the new-agers and modern theosophical schools, of which there are scads.

It seems to me she must have read something of natural science and/or cosmology, philosophy, etc, or heard it (as the above quote says), and had a remarkable memory.

Or, she was blest.

**Nope, she didn't get it from Newton. Isaac was all of 10 yrs old when Ms. Cavendish published her book.

linky

Gregory Dowling 04-26-2012 09:45 AM

Perhaps you're right, William: it's the absence of punch-lines that's held us back. For example, on my first reading the poem that struck me most was the one that concluded:

Quote:

This Harmony is Health, makes Life live long;
But when they're out, 'tis death, so dancing's done.
This is the closest that any of them get to a "kick-ass ending". I have read them through and I'm grateful to you for drawing our attention to them; they are intriguing and one guesses that she must have been an interesting character. However, I find it hard to add any specific comments on any of the individual poems. Maybe Lucretius makes more of an impact because one reads him at length and gets the impression of an all-encompassing philosophy and view of life (in addition to the fact that he has had the great privilege of being translated by Alicia). Each of these strikes me as an interesting curiosity but there isn't quite enough in the language or imagery to make me want to explore much further. And sometimes, I have to say, she does seem a little clumsy:

Spending that Life, which Natures God did give
Us to adore him, and his wonders with,
With fruitlesse, vaine, impossible pursuites...

She may have intended something subtle with that "with, / With...", but to me it just seems awkward. (Ditto the enjambment.)

Sorry I can't be more enthusiastic. As I say, I'm grateful to have learned about this writer.

(Crossposted with you)

John Riley 04-26-2012 09:58 AM

Is this the same Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, who wrote a biography of her husband William. The woman Pepys said was "a mad, conceited, ridiculous woman" and that her husband was "an ass" for allowing her to write it?

William A. Baurle 04-26-2012 09:59 AM

Hi Gregory,

I agree with you, she's no master poet. My main interest in sharing these was the subject matter she took on, which as far as I know was quite rare in that age for women writers. Rare that is, not non-existent.

Indeed, that 'with' looks wrong. I'm thinking maybe it was a printer's error.

William A. Baurle 04-26-2012 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Riley (Post 242680)
Is this the same Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, who wrote a biography of her husband William. The woman Pepys said was "a mad, conceited, ridiculous woman" and that her husband was "an ass" for allowing her to write it?

Yep, that'd be the same. I would love to hop in a time machine and drink a good dark beer with her!

William A. Baurle 04-26-2012 10:47 AM

The wiki page for Margaret Cavendish states that she was quite familiar with scholarly and philosophical works of her period. Not only that, she authored 6 books on natural philosophy.

That flies right in the face of that bit I posted from her introduction.

I'm reminded of a video I saw of Jackie Kennedy giving a tour of the White House to some major news-person whose name I can't remember. While she's giving the tour she gives out all kinds of historical and political information. But, when asked about whether it's the government's place to advocate or support the arts, she answers, "Well, that sounds awfully complicated..." and essentially shrugs off the question and quickly switches the subject. The video can be found on YouTube.

Certain sources I've read maintain that Jackie O and President Kennedy were both history buffs, and that she was extremely smart and learned. In one interview I saw of her she says, generally, that since her husband was President it was not for her to offer any kind of commentary on political issues. Her political views, she explicitly states, she takes from her husband.

Whether that be entirely true doesn't matter so much. I think this was her way of supporting her husband as a world leader, of confirming his trustworthiness and ability.

Maybe Cavendish was doing the same thing: playing dumb while simultaneously contradicting herself in her work?

John Riley 04-26-2012 12:15 PM

I downloaded her biography of William and have read parts of it. Apparently he was controversial "and had the "misfortune to have somewhat of the poet in him." I gather that some Royalists thought they could have taken London in 1643 but William refused to join in on the assault. He took off for France the day after Marsten Moor.

I've enjoyed the bits I've read. You might want to find a copy.

John


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