[William A. Baurle]

Did Ronsard actually say that, Julie, or are you paraphrasing his sentiments? I've not read the poet, so I don't know. But if he actually said that: Pregnancy has now changed those perfect, perky little tits I used to write sonnets about, so it's time again to turn my attention to another teenaged muse! - how appalling. My ex-wife was never more attractive to me than well after she's had our kids, when her breasts were far from "perky." Besides, one doesn't love a woman for her breasts! I used to tell my ex: "I don't love you because you have breasts, I love your breasts because they're yours." (Or, insert any body part for 'breasts".)

I'm certainly not denying that there are men with so low an opinion of women, I'm just not interested in that kind of person, nor their poetry.

The Jonson poem does seem to be exactly how you describe it. I'm sure there are many more poems of that nature, but they haven't impressed me nor stuck with me, which is why I can't recall any similar to Jonson's.

Ralph,

I think what I'm talking about is neither, since I'm referring to the romantic love of one person for another: not selfless (I'm not sure that anyone can be truly selfless, nor do I think it would be healthy), and not purely sexual. It's not an either/or kind of thing.

The subject of healthy, harmless romantic love is really not that complex (though it can be, just like any other aspect of being human), and the need to psychoanalyze people (or poets) for having natural feelings and emotions is what I find worrisome, not to mention a bit baffling, about this whole discussion. I'm glad there's this thread, however, and I'd rather hoped more Spherians would offer their opinions, since it's been something of a hot topic lately on the boards.

I'll have more to say later, after work. I'm on my break at the moment.