[Quincy Lehr]

I'm almost hoping that this thread will be a non-starter, but as what David Halitsky would call a discussion of "sociopoetics"* has been burbling on the Deep End in a couple of threads, I thought I'd throw something up to act as a lightning rod in case anyone wants to comment.

As I see it, the Deep End is as it has been. I've certainly seen it a lot worse. Yes, some poems I thought were pretty good have been rubbished, and some stuff I thought was boring as hell has been praised, but what else is new? I haven't witnessed a public crucifixion in a while, and Jesus, we all know what TDE is like. yes, it can homogenise drafts. Though by no means always. But come on folks, it is what it is. Like any board, it has its strengths and weaknesses. The weaknesses have been in relative abeyance lately.

And, as a veteran shit-stirrer, I want this defence of the board bronzed in due course, half-assed though it may be.

Quincy

*And yes, the citation of Halitsky is quite deliberate though somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

[This message has been edited by Quincy Lehr (edited December 03, 2007).]

[Mary Meriam]

What do you think, Quincy, should I jump out of the baby pool and hit the deep end for once? I have a languishing ghazal, and I'm feeling masochistic.

[Mark Allinson]

Yes, Quincy – essentially, all is as it ever was.

But not exactly as it was, by my experience.

Maybe it's partly because my own practice has improved, but years ago around these parts there was a great deal more anal-retentive rule-enforcing going on, with many hard and fast rules about what was allowable variation in I.P., and rules concerning acceptable limits in rhyme, etc., such as the point raised by James on Bill’s current thread on TDE. In days of old, many quite viable poems were minutely examined for illegal feet and rhymes and forcefully “improved” by weight of numbers.

On one occasion (detailed in a thread here some years back), I demonstrated the draw-backs of such heavy-handed orthodoxy: a poem I had posted on TDE, ridiculed by all as a horrendous mistake and a metrical abomination, went on to appear in the first edition of a new mag. It worked as a poem, but it was unorthodox, and so judged a failure when measured against the standard “rules”.

Things have loosed up on that front, which is good to see, and necessary if metrical poetry is to continue.

[Peter Coghill]

When I'm writing anything I tend to be very loose with meter and have never really had a problem with the DE. Sure I've been told off for things I think are good but hopefully I, or any other poster, has the strength of conviction to ignore such posts as required. Anyway I'd like to suck up and say how much I've learned here over the past 2 years or so,
Peter

[Mark Allinson]

Let me second that idea, Peter, and state clearly that I have learned an enormous amount from posting here.

What the place can do, I think, is accelerate a writer's acquisition of technical skills faster than any other way I know.

I love the place.

Hate it.

Love it.

[Pua Sandabar]

"Love it. Hate it. Love it." Hate it. Ha! Crunch.


Footloose

Ordinarily feelin' fine
(worries drowned in warm cerveza,
slice-a-lime/tequila-chasah),
writer-wannabe casts a line
past the barnacles into brine-
y waters where the red-tips prowl,
ready to mangle tooth 'n jowl,
ev'ry metrical stumble/slip,
punctuational bramble/blip.
Unfortunate penitent? Howl!

[Jim Hayes]

I'm very relieved Quincy to see you become so mellow.

[Quincy Lehr]

I had heard that TDE was substitution-leery back in the day, but I've never particularly found it so (and my lines have gotten looser metrically over the years). You know, it could be that there's actually been a collective learning curve over the years.

Jim, I haven't mellowed, or... have I? (Exits stage right to look worriedly in the mirror.)

Quincy

[Tim Murphy]

Mark, please look in on Stephen's accentual hexes at TDE.

[David Rosenthal]

I am not exactly sure what this thread is about (which makes me nervous and self-conscious). But I know that I learn a lot on TDE, reading other people's threads as well as my own. I also learn whose crits help me most, and what different people's strengths are as critics. I get a lot out of it, even when I get slammed.

I think a key to any workshop is to remember that everyone isn't always right. That sounds silly, but it is the key to avoid the clone machine. If you think you have to revise based on every drop of feedback, then you're sunk.

David R.