[Chris Childers]

Sounds good to me, though it seems to have only two pentameters. I guess it's an elegiac stanza, which the ancients never did, but, hell, they could have. And a very Greek subject! The Christian bowdlerizers would disapprove. (Which is as it should be.)

C

[Chris Childers]

Having said all that, I just found this by Sidney in his Arcadia, evidently an attempt to write in true quantities. He also has sapphics and hexameters. Sorry for the spellings; if you put in a little effort you get used to them:

Dorus did so well in answering Thyrsis, that euery one desired to heare him [ 10] sing something alone. Seing therfore a Lute lying vnder the Princesse Pamelas feete glad to haue such an errand to approch her, he came, but came with a dismaied grace, all his bloud stirred betwixt feare and desire. And playing vpon it with such sweetenes, as euery bodie wondered to see such skill in a shepeheard, he sang vnto it with a sorrowing voice these Elegiake verses:

[ 15]
Dorus.
— Fortune, Nature, Loue, long haue contended about me,
Which should most miseries, cast on a worme that I am.
— Fortune thus gan say; misery and misfortune is all one,
And of misfortune, fortune hath only the gift.
[ 20] — With strong foes on land, on seas with contrary tempests
Still doo I crosse this wretch, what so he taketh in hand.
— Tush, tush, said nature, this is all but a trifle, a mans selfe
Giues happs or mishapps, eu'n as he ordreth his hearte.
— But so his humor I frame, in a mould of choller adusted,
[ 25] That the delights of life shall be to him dolorouse.
— Loue smiled, and thus said; Want ioynd to desire is vnhappy.
But if he nought do desire, what can Heraclitus aile?
— None but I, workes by desire: by desire haue I kindled in his soule
Infernall agonies vnto a bewtye diuine,
[ 30] — Where thou poore nature left'st all thy due glory, to fortune
Her vertue is soueraine, fortune a vassal of hers.
— Nature abasht went back: fortune blusht: yet she replide thus:
And eu'n in that loue, shall I reserue him a spite.
— Thus, thus, alas! wofull in nature, vnhappy by fortune,
[ 35] But most wretched I am, now loue awakes my desire.

And here's another really long one, from Book III:

For she finding it at her after noone-returne, in another place then she left it, opened it. But when she saw the letter, her hart gaue her from whence it came. And therefore clapping it to againe, she went away from it, as if it had bene a con∣tagious garment of an infected person: and yet was not long away, but that she wi∣shed she had read it, though she were loth to read it. Shall I (said she) secōd his bold∣nes [ 15] so far, as to read his presumptuous letters? And yet (said she) he sees me not now to grow the bolder therby: And how can I tel, whether they be presumptuous? The paper came from him & therfore not worthy to be receiued? and yet the paper (she thought was not guiltie. At last, she concluded, it were not much amisse to looke it ouer, that she might out of his words pick some further quarrell against him. The• [ 20] she opened it, and threw it away, and took it vp againe, till (ere she were aware) he• eyes would needs read it, conteining this matter.

VNto a caitife wretch, whom long affliction holdeth,
and now fully beleeues helpe to be quite perished;
Grant yet, grant yet a looke, to the last monument of his anguishe,
[ 25] O you (alas so I finde) cause of his onely ruine.
Dread not a whit (O goodly cruell) that pittie may enter
into thy hart by the sight of this Epistle I send•
And so refuse to beholde of these strange wounds the recitall,
least it might th'allure home to thy selfe to returne,
[ 30] (Vnto thy selfe I do meane those graces dwell so within thee,
gratefulnes, sweetnes, holy loue, hartie regard)
Such thing cannot I seeke (Despaire hath giu'n me my answere
Despaire most tragicall clause to a deadly request)
Such thing cannot he hope, that knowes thy determinat hardnes;
[ 35] hard like a rich marbell: hard, but a faire Diamond.
Can those eyes that of eyes drownd in most harty flowing teares,
(teares and teares of a man) had no returne to remorse;
Can those eyes now yeeld to the kind conceit of a sorow,
which inke onely relates, but ne laments, ne replies?
[ 40] Ah, that, that I do I not conceiue (though that to my blisse were)
more then Nestors yeares, more then a Kings diademe.
Ah, that, that do I not conceiue; to the heauen when a mouse climes
then may I hope t'atchieue grace of a heauenly tiger.
But, but alas, like a man condemn'd doth craue to be heard speak
[ 45] not that he hopes for amends of the desaster he feeles,
But finding th'approch of death with an inly relenting,
giues an adieu to the world, as to his onely delight:
Page [unnumbered]Right so my boiling hart, enflam'de with s•re of a faire eye,
bubling out doth breath signes of his hugie dolours:
Now that he findes to what end his life, and loue be reserued,
and that he thence must part where to liue only he liu'd.
O faire, O fairest, are such thy triumphs to thy fairenesse? [ 5]
can death beautie become? must I be such monument?
Must I be onely the marke, shall proue that vertue is angrie?
shall proue that fiercenes can with a white doue abide?
Shall to the world appeare that faith and loue be rewarded
with mortall disdaine, bent to vnendly reuenge? [ 10]
Vnto reuenge? O sweete, on a wretch wilt thou be reuenged?
shall such high Plannets tend to the losse of a worme?
And to reuenge who doo bend, would in that kinde be reuenged,
as th'offence was done, and goe beyond if he can.
All my'offence was Loue: with Loue then must I be chastned, [ 15]
and with more, by the lawes that to reuenge doo belong.
If that loue be a fault, more fault in you to be louely:
Loue ne•er had me opprest, but that I saw to be lou'd.
You be the cause that I loud: what Reason blameth a shadowe,
that with a body 't goes? since by a body it is. [ 20]
If that Loue you did hate, you should your beauty haue hidden:
you should those faire eyes haue with a veile couered.
But fooole, foole that I am, those eyes would shine from a darke caue.
what veiles then doo preuaile, but to a more miracle?
Or those golden lockes, those lockes which lock me to bondage, [ 25]
torne you should disperse vnto the blasts of a winde.
But foole, foole that I am, tho I had but a haire of her head found,
eu'n as I am, so I should vnto that haire be a thrall.
Or with faire hands-nailes (ô hand which nailes me to this death)
you should haue your face (since Loue is ill) blemished. [ 30]
O wretch, what do I say? should that faire face be defaced?
should my too-much sight cause so true a Sunne to be lost?
First let Cimmerian darknes be my onel'habitacion:
first be mine eyes pulde out, first be my braine perished;
Ere that I should consent to doo so excessiue a dammage [ 35]
vnto the earth, by the hurt of this her heauenly iewell.
O not, but such loue you say you could haue afoorded,
as might learne Temp'rance voide of a rages euents.
O sweet simplicitie: from whence should Loue be so learned?
vnto Cupid that boy shall a Pedante be found? [ 40]
Well: but faultie I was: Reason to my Passion yeelded,
Passion vnto my rage, Rage to a hastie reuenge.
But what's this for a fault, for which such faith be abolisht,
such saith, so staineles, inuiolate, violent?
Shall I not? ô may I not thus yet refresh the remembrance, [ 45]
what sweete ioyes I had once, and •hat a place I did hold?
Shall I not once obiect, that you, you graunted a fauour
Page 123vnto the man, whom now such miseries you awarde?
Bend your thoughts to the dear sweet words which then to me giu'n were:
thinke what a world is now, thinke who hath altred her hart.
What? was I then worthie such good, now worthie such euill?
[ 5] now fled, then cherished? then so nie, now so remote?
Did not a rosed breath, from lips more rosie proceeding,
say, that I should well finde in what a care I was had?
With much more: now what doo I finde, but Care to abhor me,
Care that I sinke in griefe, Care that I liue banished?
[ 10] And banished doo I liue, nor now will seeke a recou'rie,
since so she will, whose will is to me more then a lawe.
If then a man in most ill case may giue you a farewell;
farewell, long farewell, all my woe, all my delight.

[Allen Tice]

Originally Posted by Chris Childers

Since spondees are rare (arguably non-existent) in English, iambs and trochees are acceptable alternatives.

By contrast, the pentameter (-~~-~~- // -~~-~~-)

They remain an interesting curiosity at the margins of English literature.

Far be it for me to disagree in any important way with the man of many chops, scilicet Chris Childers, but my translations from 'Phocylides' which the Classical Outlook is to publish alongside his own fine work (and which I will eventually post here), have arguably existent spondees as the first foot in each pentameter. I believe they add a lot of salt to the English. Dactyls are relatively easy and can get soporific. Cherchez le spondee, my friends! It's a very rewarding hunt, like that of looking for good and better truffles! I wish people would just get over saying that there are no spondees in English! If the Greeks and especially the Romans had had phoneticians and recording equipment as sophisticated as ours is, they probably wouldn't have found nearly as many "perfect" spondees as they actually used. Speech is flexible in every environment.

I seriously, seriously, doubt that any significant proportion of classical spondees had both syllables pronounced with exactly the same level of stress or even exactly identical duration, especially outside of song performance.

What Chris says about the comparatively enormous palette available in English iambic verse is true.

On the other hand, there's just nothing like the sensuous bump and grind of some classical meters. (The standard Sapphic is pretty tame.) Nothing at all like that old-time hootchy-koo.

All Best, to all.

PS. An iamb, maybe when well placed at a line start or where its first syllable is accented more than the preceding one (commonly a weak final dactyl syllable). A trochee? A last resort.

Originally Posted by Allen Tice

See post thirty-eight on this thread, linked here.

[Chris Childers]

Spondees will be heard, or at least recognized, by people who know to listen for them. The argument about their existence is academic. The rhythmical difference is obvious between 'tiger shark' and 'tie-dyed shirt,' no matter whether or not you believe in spondees. I would still permit substitution of iambs and trochees for dactyls and spondees in English.

C

[Allen Tice]

Pretty much agreed. Useful examples. I was only speaking of my own compositional practice.

[peterjb]

An "elegiac pentameter" IS meant to be pentameter, with five main stresses, right? In nearly all the examples in this thread (and in the linked poem by Maryann) I'm seeing/hearing hexameter only.

On the first page, Chris, you even say "a second line (called an elegiac pentameter) that looks more or less like this: -~~-~~-//-~~-~~- " — and you show six stressed syllables there!

The Callimachus translation does have hex+pent couplets. In many of the others the second line of each couplet may look shorter on the page (because of the caesura) — but those lines still have six stresses, so in my book they're not pentameter. Not that I think it matters much. The pattern certainly works well where the caesura is observed in the even lines, less well where it isn't (in the Bulwer-Lytton, for example).

[John Whitworth]

wll.actually to my ear, only FOUR stresses. Or maybe six. It's in two halves.

DAdede Dadede DA DAdede DAdede DA

or

DAdede Dadede de DAdede DAdede de

[Chris Childers]

Originally Posted by peterjb

An "elegiac pentameter" IS meant to be pentameter, with five main stresses, right? In nearly all the examples in this thread (and in the linked poem by Maryann) I'm seeing/hearing hexameter only.

On the first page, Chris, you even say "a second line (called an elegiac pentameter) that looks more or less like this: -~~-~~-//-~~-~~- " — and you show six stressed syllables there!

The Callimachus translation does have hex+pent couplets. In many of the others the second line of each couplet may look shorter on the page (because of the caesura) — but those lines still have six stresses, so in my book they're not pentameter. Not that I think it matters much. The pattern certainly works well where the caesura is observed in the even lines, less well where it isn't (in the Bulwer-Lytton, for example).

I was just reading Martin West on Greek meter last night, who calls the pentameter "ineptly named" or something like that. The classical elegiac pentameter doesn't really have feet, it has two cola, half-lines or hemiepe, but in English, yes, it comes out with six stresses. (In the classical pentameter, I don't show six stressed syllables, I show six long syllables, which is different; there are as many as eight possible longs, sc., --/--/-//-~~-~~-, but the second half doesn't really divide into "feet.") John failed to capitalize his second 'da,' but it goes

DAdede DAdede DA DAdede DAdede DA

to use his notation. I think West might have explained why the ancients called it a pentameter, but I have forgotten; I may look again today or tomorrow (that book is a serious slog!). Anyway, it is apparently a dumb name for the line in Greek and even worse in English. As you note, the line only comes out shorter than the preceding hex because of the caesura, and also the masculine ending (vs. the feminine ending of the dac-hex).

C

[Allen Tice]

peterjb, West's language that Chris has quoted is just and apt.

I always think of it as a linkage of two units of 'two and a half feet' each, hence a larger group of 'five'.

My OCD describes the second line of the elegiac couplet as it the "so-called 'pentameter' ", and says it was a very early "development of the epic hexameter in the direction of melic verse [sung with a flute or lyre], which consists of two 'hemiepes' verses combined into a single line form :

_  u u  _  u u  _  |  _  u u _  u u  _ ".

This pattern includes both extremes that Chris has illustrated; that is, in the first hemiepes only, either or both dactyls (_uu) can be spondees (_ _); there is a final long in each hemiepes.

A minimum of six stresses, with a slight break in the middle; a max of eight, five in the prow and three aft. As with the epic hexamater, the possible use of spondees in the first hemiepes gave the ancient composer a lot of freedom (to riff and bang perhaps).

My chief concern about the coming US presidential election is which candidate will be best for the spondees.

[peterjb]

Thanks, Chris & Allen. I know the Greek system of prosody is different from the modern English one. I was referring only to the so-called elegiacs in English, where the use of the term "pentameter" to mean something like "hexameter on a particular template" is unfortunate, as the authorities you cite seem to agree.