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  #1  
Unread 09-04-2014, 06:39 PM
E. Shaun Russell E. Shaun Russell is offline
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Default The Deep End Needs You

It's been a couple of months since I took over mod duties for the Deep End. We've had some great conversations in that time, including a few poems that needed (and received!) significant revision, as well as a few that were positively sublime as posted. Traffic seems to have dipped again, however, so I encourage those of you who don't normally dip your toes in TDE waters to do so. The forum's stated objective was recently reformulated somewhat, so some of you who may have been scared off previously might want to give it a second look.

I think the "reboot," as it were, has progressed well enough -- the forum simply needs more regulars. So come on by, and bring your strongest unpublished poems.
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Unread 09-04-2014, 07:50 PM
Michael Juster Michael Juster is offline
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It's time to make it a private forum as with Drills.
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  #3  
Unread 09-04-2014, 11:19 PM
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W.F. Lantry W.F. Lantry is offline
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" a private forum"

Alas, Michael, I love you man, but this strikes me as a non-starter. It might be the death of the place. Open wounds need sunshine, after all...
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Unread 09-05-2014, 04:27 AM
Michael Juster Michael Juster is offline
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I think a lot of people are afraid to post publicly these days for fear of piracy or for fear of a lost opportunity to publish (note the spate of fake titles). I post about once a year, and then vow never to do it again because the formal and informal rules of civility that once ruled here have gone by the wayside.

I'd create a positive incentive for good behavior by saying admission to TDE (and just TDE) is NOT based on poetic ability, but on the quality and civility of one's crits.

There's a person here who routinely misreads people's poems, makes incorrect inferences about their religion, and then shrilly denounces their beliefs or Biblical interpretations as "wrong." Keep him out. Let the Bob Schechters & Susan McLeans in. I'd come back for that.

It ain't gonna work with the old model. Think of how many great poets have walked away from here.
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Unread 09-05-2014, 04:30 AM
Michael Juster Michael Juster is offline
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Oh, and, Bill, you're OK too.
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  #6  
Unread 09-05-2014, 05:12 AM
E. Shaun Russell E. Shaun Russell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Juster View Post
It ain't gonna work with the old model. Think of how many great poets have walked away from here.
I have to disagree with this. The model wasn't the issue, as TDE in its heyday had the same model, for the most part, and while it could be a vitriolic place at times, it also had a level of erudition that attracted those great poets you mention in the first place. Various elements have chased people away. One is the perception that only immaculate, utterly polished poems should be posted there, which isn't the case at all. They should be good "final draft" or "nearly finished" poems, but that is, of course, subjective. Likewise, poets who post should expect close readings and elaborate critiques. There's also the perception (as you pointed out) that the criticism is too harsh and uncivil, or is off the point. This has indeed been the case, but frankly, that's where moderation comes in. Different moderators have had different views on this matter, and I think I've staked out my own fairly clearly in the note at the top of the forum. I want to see in-depth critiques, commentaries, and discussions on the posted poems themselves. I haven't wantonly deleted any fly-by crits as yet, but I'm trying to steer participants toward truly unpacking a poem. It's an imperfect art, of course, as it always has been. But in most cases, spending twenty minutes on reading, re-reading, and commenting on a poem is time well spent, both for the critic and the poet.

Every TDE mod has had his or her own way of working with the guidelines, and I do as well. The problem is that I can't do my job effectively if there's little traffic. I don't think the model is wrong -- I think the current perception based on negative prior experiences is wrong. The only way to counteract that is to have more people posting in the forum and getting a sense of how TDE is now.
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  #7  
Unread 09-05-2014, 08:17 AM
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R. Nemo Hill R. Nemo Hill is online now
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It has been said ad nauseum: there's no difference between MET and TDE. There just isn't. I do not put on a different critical hat in one place or the other, I call 'em as I see 'em, period.

Michael, signalling out preferred critiquers is kind of tacky. As is playing coyly ad hom guessing games to out those whose style you dislike. If you want private critique, then just email your poems to those whose opinions you want. Many poets I know do just that. You don't need the auspices of a critique board to do it. An open and messier playing field is what this place is about, a microcosm of the real world into which poems may one day be released and have to fend for themselves. We do not need more rules, to enforce particular members' ideas of good behavior. Most of the great poets I know who have walked away from here have done so because of the excess of rules, and not because of the need for more of them.

TDE is redundant, sorry Shaun. You are doing a great job as moderator, but the distinction between boards has long been an illusion.

Nemo
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Unread 09-05-2014, 09:14 AM
Michael Juster Michael Juster is offline
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I agree with Nemo that right now there is no difference between Metrical & TDE, and if we stay with the current model we might as well collapse them. Common ground.

I also somewhat agree with Nemo that some poets have walked away because they want a more libertarian/Internet-flaming setting--I just don't think that there are many of those. Where I disagree is that I am sure that many of the best contributors have walked away because they felt abused by ad hom attacks--the mods don't consistently enforce what rules we have in that area, and what's worse is that the lowest-common-denominator people find ways to go up to the edge and keep degrading the forum while arguably staying within the rules.

And yes, I feel personally abused lately, even though I have said nothing about it until now, and I see others taking the same ad hom abuse. If you want to take a Darwinian view and say OK we're the weak and the competition of the Internet rightly weeds us out in favor of the predators of the Internet, that's an intellectually defensible opinion, but one with which I disagree. However, I adamantly disagree with the view that the main thing that drives people away is "rules"--I have received so many emails from former members about why they left that I feel quite confident in my perspective.

So, keep the scabrous free-for-all in Metrical for those who want it, and for those tender souls like me who want a more sheltered environment AND a protection from piracy, use TDE (probably renamed so that we can end the chronic beginner/advanced debate).

Last edited by Michael Juster; 09-05-2014 at 09:19 AM.
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  #9  
Unread 09-05-2014, 09:40 AM
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R. Nemo Hill R. Nemo Hill is online now
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You are setting up a false either/or situation, Michael. The openness I propose to be of value has nothing to do with with an Internet-flaming setting. That is not the only alternative to hyper-legislation. Many of the poets I know and respect who have left have done so because they felt that they were not being treated as adults who could do their own policing. The openness I am speaking of has to do with the fact that one may well be read by people one would not ordinarily associate with. As a result, one needs to be prepared to come up against attitudes which may fall outside of one's comfort zone. Rather then shrinking that comfort zone, I think it is salubrious to expand it and would not characterize it by any means as a scabrous free-for-all.

We shouldn't forget that there is also an organic attrition whereby poets who, through workshopping, grow more confident in their abilities to critique their own work and thus quite naturally begin to feel the workshopping experience is no longer primary value for them. I think there is a divide here between those who find getting critique to be the main point of participation, as opposed to those who place as much value on giving critique. There are many poets who disappear and only return when they have a poem to post. Personally, I find the giving of critique to be of most value these days, and I though I do not post poems as often as I used to, I remain to critique the poems of others regularly. It is through that openness to the work of others, even work I do not like, that I find the most valuable lessons. Rare moments of communion are worth the wait.

Nemo
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  #10  
Unread 09-05-2014, 09:51 AM
Michael Juster Michael Juster is offline
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Participation has been low for a long time, even in Metrical. It's low in Translation too. Now I am afraid we are doing the literary equivalent of the Ford Administration handing out "Whip Inflation Now" buttons.

I think we should try some new approaches, as Alex has done so often in the past. For me it's hard to see how it could hurt participation or civility, and maybe we need to run some experiments. If they don't work, we can always go back to the Erato of today with little risk of not replicating the current environment.

Just think hard about it, everyone--that's all I ask. Think hard about what Bill & Nemo have said--they're good guys and not part of the problem--and think hard about other opinions and alternative approaches.

Thanks.

Last edited by Michael Juster; 09-05-2014 at 09:56 AM.
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