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  #21  
Old 07-14-2017, 06:33 PM
Emitt Evan Baker Emitt Evan Baker is offline
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Nothing is out of bounds. The article is important. As is this one, contesting whether the bomb freed anyone.

https://www.thenation.com/article/wh...bed-hiroshima/
  #22  
Old 07-14-2017, 07:20 PM
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Quincy Lehr Quincy Lehr is offline
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Where am I, William? On the Sphere less frequently than you and regretting making a fairly obvious point. (One person's show of force meant to intimidate is very much another person's provocation, particularly when one of the countries has actually invaded the other one. Which one, you ask? I'll give you a hint--you live there.)
  #23  
Old 07-14-2017, 07:33 PM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
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Quote:
Joseph E Glackin says:
August 7, 2015 at 1:19 am

My father was a Major in the Signal Corps HQ planning the Nov/Dec 1945 invasion of the mainland. After the suicides in Saipan, it was expected there would be total resistance. The US has already firebombed every major Japanese city. Gen LeMay was said to say, If we don't win this war, we will all be tried as war criminals."
At the time, 100K dead American troops and 1M wounded made the bomb look good. When the Hiroshima drop did not get an immediate surrender, the second strike was used.
Japan killed 300K Chinese in Nanking in six weeks in 1937 AFTER the city had surrendered. Britain and the US killed 130K in Dresden in firestorms, when the end of the war was inevitable.
The A-bombs killed fewer people than either of these. The US thought, with reason, that Japan would fight to the death. I remember soldiers surrendering in the 1970's who refused to believe their Emperor would surrender.
Hindsight is 20/20. At the scene, the idea of a million Allied casualties made a difference.
And, in the aftermath, no one wanted to claim the decision except Truman. But every one of them knew it saved American lives. That was what mattered.
The quote comes from the comments section of the article Emitt linked to. I don't agree with the very last sentence. I think any and all innocent human lives matter.

That being said, I AM NOT the POTUS, as Truman was, then. He was consigned, at that extremely difficult time, with the protection and security of the country of which he was President. My 20/20-hindsight morality, and me being born two decades after the horrific event in question, withers away to irrelevance.
  #24  
Old 07-14-2017, 07:45 PM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quincy Lehr View Post
Where am I, William? On the Sphere less frequently than you and regretting making a fairly obvious point. (One person's show of force meant to intimidate is very much another person's provocation, particularly when one of the countries has actually invaded the other one. Which one, you ask? I'll give you a hint--you live there.)
Nikki Haley's speech (It's a youtube link because the other vid links are jitterbugging for me, but the video can be seen all over):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIOinfm4sEY

IOW, no, Quincy, you are wrong. The USA does not want to start a war, but is trying to forestall it with a show of force, after the supreme leader in NK started playing with his new toys.

Liberal logic seems to be: crazy tyrant The supreme leader in the other nation is NOT the bad guy. OH NO, never! It's America that's the baddie. Kim can do whatever the hell he damn well pleases, and liberals in the West will not say a single negative thing about him, even though his own people are under oppression.

Last edited by William A. Baurle; 07-15-2017 at 05:23 AM. Reason: removed the word 'loony'; changed 'lefty' to liberal
  #25  
Old 07-15-2017, 03:06 AM
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Ann Drysdale Ann Drysdale is online now
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"To Americans, the death of one innocent person can be as powerful as the death of millions."

So that's all right, then. Silly me. No need to listen to the rest of it.

And nor will many of the people who came in at the beginning with the emphasis on the case of Otto Warmbier. A calculated reel-em-in newsbite.

Two decades, eh William? I was three when the bomb fell on Hiroshima. I was still reeling from the horror of the extraordinary happenings of May 8th, when people flung furniture out into the street and lit huge fires to celebrate there being no more huge fires... I recall cowering under a trestle table in South London, pondering on the irrationality of human behaviour, while little pieces of bright yellow cake, made with dried egg, dropped all around me. Fairy cakes, iced in red, white and blue were served, but even after all that austerity - which was to last a lot longer - some people couldn't bring themselves to eat the blue bits.

But I also remember the sights and sounds and smells of the before of it. I know what it's like to be bombed. I wish more people in positions of power were able to say the same thing.

So you see, I'm not only a lady, I'm a very old lady. A loony-lefty old bat. So don't you pay me no never-mind, young man. Nobody else will.
  #26  
Old 07-15-2017, 03:27 AM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
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I am sorry for what you went through, Ann. I don't know if you believe me or not.

Should the US allow a nuclear missile fired upon an American city to hit its target?
Perhaps out of a sense of guilt? Or something like that?

Or should the US try to intercept the missile?


Anyone may feel free to answer the question.

Last edited by William A. Baurle; 07-15-2017 at 05:24 AM.
  #27  
Old 07-15-2017, 04:25 AM
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Ann Drysdale Ann Drysdale is online now
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Not all bad, William. I met my first American soon after that. There was a big party at the anti-aircraft station on the common near my house. We children were given treats from the field kitchen (a lemon curd tart!)and rides on the revolving gun turrets. A big GI lifted me up and set me spinning slowly round. I remember his gentle strength and his smile. For a long time I believed that all Americans were black.
  #28  
Old 07-15-2017, 05:42 AM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
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I like that story, especially about the black G.I.

I wonder why most of the active members on the Sphere ignored Ralph's Black History Month thread back in February, where all we really had to do was post great poems by great black poets, of which there are a great many, even after being alerted to the thread by me in a few of the political threads going on at the same time?

Why?

Because most of the active members were busy writing doggerel in the anti-Trump threads that had been going on at about the same time, busy patting one another on the back and feeling very comfy.

I was told by one senior member that, well, perhaps those members didn't have time to join in Ralph's thread? Which seemed odd since they apparently had plenty of time to write political doggerel and congratulate one another, over and over.

Then another senior member said that they did were not black and did not feel that it would be proper to try and imagine what it would be like to suffer bigotry and prejudice, so they did not feel comfortable joining in the thread.

Then another senior member told me in private that...

No, let's not go there.
  #29  
Old 07-15-2017, 06:23 AM
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Michael Ferris Michael Ferris is offline
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Bill, I’m not an ethicist, just a fuzzy-headed occasional poet, but I think I would answer your question this way:

It is defensible for a nation to shoot down a missile that has been fired at its people. It should take care to minimize all loss of life from such an action, so over the open ocean may not be the worst option. It is not defensible for a nation ‘preemptively’ to bomb or attack another nation that it suspects may launch a missile at it in the future. (Isn’t that the infelicitous "Bush Doctrine"?) And it’s hypocritical for a nation to attack another ‘preemptively’ when the preemptive aggressor already possesses one of the world’s largest arsenals of the weapon in question.

It’s an interesting exercise to compare the list of countries that the US has bombed or invaded since 1945 with the list of countries that North Korea has bombed or invaded since 1945. Then, it’s interesting to see how many of the countries that the US bombed or invaded had nuclear capability at the time we attacked them. You can draw your own conclusions from the exercise.

Annie, haruspex is a marvelous word. And if you succeed with your hens, I want one.

Last edited by Michael Ferris; 07-15-2017 at 11:05 AM. Reason: clean up
  #30  
Old 07-15-2017, 10:48 AM
Matt Q Matt Q is offline
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Hi Bill,

You say that "This show of force is NOT intended as a threat, or a provocation. It is quite literally done as a means of preventing North Korea from even thinking about initiating aggression."

Quincy says "One person's show of force meant to intimidate is very much another person's provocation, particularly when one of the countries has actually invaded the other one. Which one, you ask? I'll give you a hint--you live there."

You say "Quincy, you are wrong. The USA does not want to start a war, but is trying to forestall it with a show of force, after the supreme leader in NK started playing with his new toys."

Now, I don't see Quincy saying that he thinks the US wants to start a war, do you? All I see him saying is that North Korea may view these actions more as escalation and threat of war than as a show of force with the peaceful goal of avoiding a war. Surely one can hold that Kim Jong Un is an unhinged and dangerous dictator and oppressor of his own people and still question the strategy used to respond to him? Now maybe Quincy holds the views you attribute to him, but if he does, he's certainly not expressed it here. I did find myself wondering, especially with the additional comments you've since deleted, if perhaps you were reading things into what Quincy said based on what you'd expected his view to be.

Because then I read this: "Liberal logic seems to be: crazy tyrant The supreme leader in the other nation is NOT the bad guy. OH NO, never! It's America that's the baddie. Kim can do whatever the hell he damn well pleases, and liberals in the West will not say a single negative thing about him, even though his own people are under oppression."

OK, well that's not a view I hold, and it's also not a view I've seen expressed (though I'm not reading much of the US press) and it certainly hasn't been expressed on this thread as far as I can see. I've only ever seen negative things said about Kim Jong Un in the media, including the liberal media. Of course, I'm not saying that you can't find examples of people out there expressing the view that you attribute to all liberals. Perhaps you can. But still, every liberal? Or even the majority of them?

If I've understood you correctly, you are someone who is opposed to the idea of classes of people and wants people seen as individuals. So how about starting with some individual examples of the above view so we can assess and address these on their merits, rather than a massively sweeping, unevidenced and clearly false (if only by virtue of its generality) statement about hundreds of millions of people who've you've grouped together based solely on a very broadly shared political/philosophical view.

We, the amorphous left-leaning masses of the West, may not be who you think we are. We may even be individuals with widely differing views on a variety of topics, and some of our views, if only a minority of them, may even be quite reasonable.

best,

Matt
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