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  #21  
Unread 06-06-2009, 03:40 AM
John Whitworth's Avatar
John Whitworth John Whitworth is offline
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I have an alter ego, Phoebe Flood, which I have long intended to use to submit work to Mslexia and the like. I have never actually done so because Mslexia doesn't PAY, and I suppose if it did I would blow my cover when I tried to cash the cheque. It used to be possible to set up a bank account under a fictitious name, but now, of course, you can't do it. Could ask for cash, I suppose.

I think that to be a young black lesbian of left wing persuasion would be quite advantageous on the British poetry scene. Why, come to think of it ....
  #22  
Unread 06-06-2009, 04:03 AM
Mark Allinson Mark Allinson is offline
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That should quieten things down.

Yes, I know what you mean, Mike.

Any un-PC reference to NATURE having anything to do with our lives and minds is usually met with shrieking, white-knuckled rage.

But Camille knows:

"Women have conceptualized less in history not because men have kept them from doing so but because women do not need to conceptualize to live ... Conceptualization and sexual mania may issue from the same part of the male brain [yes, sorry ladies, as science is now proving, male and female brains are different from the womb, and not as a result of social conditioning]. Fetishism, for instance, a practice which like most sex perversions is confined to men, is clearly a conceptualizing or symbol-making activity ... Projection is a male curse: forever to need someone or something to make oneself complete. This is one of the sources of art and the secret of its domination by males. The artist is the closest man has come to imitating woman's superb self-containment." Sexual Personae, pp 20-28.

These are the forces from Nature which lead to the imbalance in the figures for poetry.
  #23  
Unread 06-06-2009, 04:56 AM
A. E. Stallings A. E. Stallings is offline
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I think exasperation more than rage, Mark. Sure, there are statistically significant differences of female and male brains overall in Nature--but there are also individual differences that are larger on a case by case basis than these generalizations. Poets are individuals, not just a random statistical sample of the general population. There are men not driven to "create" anything, and women whose creative urge is towards art as much as/more than bearing children... Surely this is obvious.
  #24  
Unread 06-06-2009, 06:23 AM
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Maryann Corbett Maryann Corbett is online now
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Jill, there's always the possibility of waiting until the children are grown, as happened with me. There's plenty of life left After Children. But make good notes.

I remember reading in the first issue of Poet's Market I ever bought that women submit less than men. I thought that was a given. It was presented there as a confidence issue.

So guys, how much do YOU submit? I tried for a long time to get a packet of three poems out every week, and that worked while I was submitting exclusively to places with quick turnaround. With the print mags that take six months and more to respond, it doesn't. I can't crank poems out weekly any more, and I don't get them back fast enough, and keeping track of simsubs and withdrawals will drive me nuts, even with Duotrope.

Mike Alexander once wrote about reading for a journal and getting a packet of poems from Lyn Lifshin. As I recall, he complained that the ten poems seemed to have been aimed scattershot at anything, not chosen with any consideration of that particular publication. But she's the queen of the little magazines, so maybe that method works!

But now, back to the overtime work I'm supposed to be doing.
  #25  
Unread 06-06-2009, 06:29 AM
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Janice D. Soderling Janice D. Soderling is offline
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Quote:
Let's put it this way: if you have time to read Eratosphere, you have time to spend a few minutes jotting down words or ideas!
Shaun, with respect, there is a difference between scanning the morning paper and writing a letter to the editor. And a diff between scanning Eratosphere and finding time to write and polish a poem.

Speaking generally, and speaking as someone who used to work my poems in my head while walking to work and jotting down "the right word" on whatever paper was handy. But perhaps I would have written more (not necessarily world-shattering poetry, but "more") had I not worked full-time, and been a solo mom, and taken on free-lance night work to make ends meet and/or provide frills such as vacations abroad and music lessons. Perhaps I would have written more had I been brainer, or more talented, or lived in an English-speaking country, or had a grant to relieve financial pressure, or if, if, if.

If, if! You know the old saying, "If grandma had conjones, she would be grandpa."

I'm not complaining. You take the life you get and play the cards you are dealt. There is no point in griping about what might have been. Most of us have had periods in our lives when the workload was astounding. Some choose the workload, others cope with it because it is there. But you know what, guys. The kitchen and the conference room are two different worlds. Work them both simultaneously, and you'll find out.

You know what else. Camille P. is full of a word I am not allowed to use on this site. And yes, I am aware of the research on biological differences but don't twist it into being more than it is.

Every teacher knows that boys dominate a mixed-gender classroom but do not necessarily do best on the final exams. The boys with the highest grades are not necessarily the noisiest ones.

Why gripe about a few mags devoted to women's writing? Are you also going to complain about the few little magazines devoted to black or hispanic writers? To translations? To mags about veteran sports cars? Women's lit is just another speciality mag, another way of presenting a certain kind of literature. Jeez.

Last edited by Janice D. Soderling; 06-06-2009 at 08:48 AM. Reason: Edited so as not to seem I was Shaun-bashing.
  #26  
Unread 06-06-2009, 07:09 AM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is offline
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I think Finch isn't saying the incorrect things that Mark is using illogic to knock down. She writes:
Quote:
My own concern with these ratios is not so much with the proportions themselves—after all, men have the momentum of having published poetry for centuries longer than women, and to focus on the numerical difference between a third and a half, however frustrating and annoying that situation on a personal level, might seem akin to hollow bean-counting—but with what these numbers imply about the prevailing climate of poetics.
I don't see her shrilly ranting about any sort of "patriarchy." Her sin is having come close enough to one of Mark's reactionary hot spots to have triggered another of Mark's "this is what's wrong with literature and why I am not a more respected and valued poet and educator" rants. The numerical differences that Finch notes do raise a good question, and Mark's insistence that it is NATURE is no more based in fact than other answers that have been offered. Camille Paglia's views are also not scientific proof.

What do these numbers imply about the prevailing climate of poetics? Nothing at all?

Annie Finch is not, as far as I can tell, a man-hater. When she is an editor, she accepts work from men as well as from women. She is merely commenting on a numerical fact and speculating about what it might mean. In a world whose history proves, beyond any doubt, widespread gender discrimination, much of which has only eroded in the last forty years or so (by virtually any metric), it is certainly not silly to inquire whether that may be part of what is happening in poetry. The glib insistence, with rolled eyes and exasperation, that no, it's that men and women are different, is sloppy and prejudiced thinking, whatever the true answer may be.
  #27  
Unread 06-06-2009, 07:40 AM
Paul Stevens
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It's all the fault of those Shifty-Eyed Marxist Post-Modernist PC Greenie Gender-Studies Crypto-Islamo-Fascist Feminist Cultural-Studies Multicultural Post-Structuralist-Apocalyptic Tree-Hugging Iced-Vo-Vo-Dunking Anti-Poetry English Teachers! Again!!!!
  #28  
Unread 06-06-2009, 07:59 AM
E. Shaun Russell E. Shaun Russell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maryann Corbett View Post
So guys, how much do YOU submit? I tried for a long time to get a packet of three poems out every week, and that worked while I was submitting exclusively to places with quick turnaround. With the print mags that take six months and more to respond, it doesn't. I can't crank poems out weekly any more, and I don't get them back fast enough, and keeping track of simsubs and withdrawals will drive me nuts, even with Duotrope.
Maryann -- for my part, I usually spend a few hours on a Sunday morning putting submissions together. I haven't been as avid about it for the past couple months, but a typical month would see about thirty poems / ten submissions from me. Some months, double that. Some months I'll only send out two or three. I don't actually track my work via Duotrope, though -- I keep a running Word document with all the assorted information. It's a 38 page document now, mind you...

Janice -- I agree that there's a difference between reading Erato for fifteen minutes and polishing a poem, but I hope you know I wrote that particular sentence tongue-in-cheek. I still stand behind my point, though, insofar as one can MAKE time for art. If it matters to you enough, you have to make the sacrifice of half an hour a day...or a couple of hours on a weekend. Look at Anna Evans -- she is a wife, a mother, editor of TWO poetry journals, and still finds the time to submit her work to various venues. A quick look at her blog shows that she hasn't jettisoned any of the requisite family stuff, though she has doubtless made some concessions in that regard.

Ultimately, the point is that I can't see any conspiracy among editors to subjugate women poets. Rather, I think it's more common to see women subjugating themselves by not sacrificing for the art.
  #29  
Unread 06-06-2009, 08:04 AM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is offline
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Are you saying that women are less willing to sacrifice for art than men are?

As far as keeping track of submissions is concerned, I suggest setting up a very simple spreadsheet on google documents, then bookmark it. That way, you can pull it up from any internet computer. Just make a column for the publication, a column for the name of your poem, a column for the date you sent it out, a column for the date you got an answer, a column for the result, and a column for notes and comments. I also add a column that tells me how long the poem has been out or how long it took to get a response. I am not at all adept at spreadsheets, but even I could do that.

Another alternative is using wordshustler.com, which is pretty much just an online secretarial service -- you retain complete control over where to send your work, but you give them a relatively small amount of money and they print it up, enclose a SASE (and reply postcard if you like), put it in an envelope, and send it out for you. They will even be your address for responses, though you are free (and I think wise) to use your own address so responses come directly to you. For a 4-page submission, they charge only a dollar, I think.

Last edited by Roger Slater; 06-06-2009 at 08:11 AM.
  #30  
Unread 06-06-2009, 08:07 AM
John Whitworth's Avatar
John Whitworth John Whitworth is offline
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To sacrifice WHAT for Art, Roger?
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