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  #1  
Unread 12-31-2011, 02:45 PM
Lance Levens Lance Levens is offline
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Default Ruining a Great Poem

Here's an interesting bit: ruining a great poem. I'll post a poem, then post rewrites (from W.D.Snodgrass De/Compositions). Sphereans can comment or not. The first piece is from Robert Herrick and the focus is on metrics and music.

Upon Julia's Clothes

Whenas in silks my Julia goes,
Then, then, methinks, how sweetly flows
That liquefaction of her clothes.

Next, when I cast mine eyes, and see
That brave vibration, each way free,
O, how that glittering taketh me!


Upon Julia's Garments
(composed from Herrick into strict regularity)


When dressed in silk my Julia goes
I always think it sweetly flows
While fluid motion sways her clothes.

When next I look at her and see
That splendid movement, loose and free,
Its gleam completely captures me!

What say you?
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  #2  
Unread 12-31-2011, 03:02 PM
Janice D. Soderling's Avatar
Janice D. Soderling Janice D. Soderling is offline
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I say that you have chosen a good title for this thread.
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  #3  
Unread 12-31-2011, 03:31 PM
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Gail White Gail White is offline
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Just goes to show the power of the individual word. Poetry, I've always said, is just choosing one right word after another.

Incidentally, I once parodied Herrick in a couplet, as follows:

Whenas in silks my Julia goes,
They cling unto her pantyhose.
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  #4  
Unread 12-31-2011, 03:35 PM
Lance Levens Lance Levens is offline
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Janice

This is Snodgrass's doings, not mine. I'm not skilled enough to make even a bad poem, but I thought looking at the music and meter of this one--compared with the rewrite--might be instructive.

Gail

Had Julia worn pantyhose, I can only imagine what Herrick would have written.
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  #5  
Unread 12-31-2011, 05:21 PM
Janice D. Soderling's Avatar
Janice D. Soderling Janice D. Soderling is offline
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Oh, I know that Lance. I'm not shooting in your direction. I think this thread is a really good idea.
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  #6  
Unread 12-31-2011, 05:40 PM
Lance Levens Lance Levens is offline
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Janice

I know you're not. I though some of the newbies and oldies might profit from this. For example:

Some on the metric threads encourage elimination of substitutions (you know who you are). In this piece the rewrite does just that. It's perfect IP, but "Then, then, methinks" is lost and that passage gives a pause, a wondering. Not to mention the loss of "liquefaction." Great word.

What's happened here is the Marlow-Gorbuduc scenario all over.
The rewrite is perfect IP, but all the sentence stresses fall on the foot accents with an equal force. The iambic stomp, I believe Tim Murphy calls it.
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Unread 12-31-2011, 08:38 PM
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Maryann Corbett Maryann Corbett is offline
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Good observations about the too-regular meter in the rewrite, Lance. Let's count further the ways Snodgrass has shown us the poem's virtues by taking them away:

As you point out, there's enormous power in single, big, attention-grabbing words. (Think about how Stallings uses "adumbrated" in her "Ultrasound.") "Liquefaction" alludes to so many sexy things.

Some people object to the features of older forms of English on the grounds that they're unfamiliar, and it's true that we'd be hesitant about using them ourselves. But if they're removed from the poems they belong in, the removal drains color and texture. "Whenas" and "methinks" and "mine eyes" do things their replacements don't.

The replacements have built-in weaknesses. "Always"? A lot wimpier than the emphatic repetition "then, then." If you're going to use an adverb--and we're often told to avoid them as needless--it had better have some punch.

We've lost the alliteration and assonance of "brave vibration" for the sonically bland "splendid movement." "Each way free" has the visual element of directionality; "loose and free" just says the same thing twice. The interjected "O" and the syntax of exclamation and, smack at the high point of the line, "glittering" all get replaced--again--with an unhelpful adverb "completely". Yes, we've got a new assonance in "gleam completely." But it doesn't offset the losses. "Glittering" is a LOT of light-play; "gleam" is just one bit of it, much less impressive.

I've got a copy of De/Compositions around somewhere--I should dig it out and study further.

Last edited by Maryann Corbett; 12-31-2011 at 11:59 PM.
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  #8  
Unread 12-31-2011, 09:21 PM
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Mary Meriam Mary Meriam is offline
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There's nothing un-strict about the meter in this poem, if you take elisions and accents into account:

Upon Julia's Clothes

WhenAS in SILKS my JUL-ia goes,
Then, THEN, meTHINKS, how SWEET-ly FLOWS
That LIQ-uefi-CA-tion OF her CLOTHES.

Next, WHEN I CAST mine EYES, and SEE
That BRAVE vi-BRA-tion, EACH way FREE,
o, HOW that GLITT-ering TAKeth ME!
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  #9  
Unread 12-31-2011, 09:28 PM
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Maryann, what an excellent dissection. Thank you.
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  #10  
Unread 12-31-2011, 10:59 PM
Lance Levens Lance Levens is offline
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Mary

There's nothing un-strict about the meter in this poem, if you take elisions and accents into account:

Upon Julia's Clothes

WhenAS in SILKS my JUL-ia goes,
Then, THEN, meTHINKS, how SWEET-ly FLOWS
That LIQ-ue-fac-tion OF her CLOTHES.

Next, WHEN I CAST mine EYES, and SEE
That BRAVE vi-BRA-tion, EACH way FREE,
o, HOW that GLITT-ering TAKeth ME!
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Mary,

You're right. The IP is there in the Herrick, but, in the rewrite each iambic foot receives an equal sentence stress. Look at S1L3. The first sentence stress comes with the "CA" in "liquefi-ca-tion". He achieves the same effect in the next stanza with "O, how that glittering..." To put it another way: even though the "liquefication" line is IP, it moves a lot faster because of the long Latinate word. In the rewrite, the lines plod. There's little alteration of speed because the stress in each foot receives an equal weight. The iambic stomp.
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