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  #1  
Unread 07-22-2014, 03:54 AM
Matt Q Matt Q is offline
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Default Working titles, shielding and bots

I've noticed that some members post with a thread title that differs from their poem thread to hide titles from search engines, since this may affect chances of publication in some magazines.

I've just tried searching for poem thread title of mine on Google and it didn't turn up which was pleasing. Then I searched again on Janice's "working title to confuse bots is Poverty" (since that was what had piqued my interest in the first place) and got two hits. It seems that this forum generally manages to hide to the thread titles from bots, but not when the titles appear on the main forum page(s) that show each board and its most recent post. So if you're unlucky enough to be the most recent thread when the bot comes a-crawlin', then into the Google cache you go - so it's a bit of a lottery. Janice's thread was captured here at 11am on the 19th here and here

This left me wondering, how long does Google keep the cached copy before it replaces it with a more recent version. If it's only kept a few days, that's not really an issue is it? It'd have disappeared by the time you send the poem out. But googling Eratosphere I see the most recent cached copy is dated 3 hours ago, so Google is clearly keeping more than one copy, in fact, searching on poems posted in June, I find cached versions of those titles too.

So, I'm sure this may well be a subject that's been raised before, and my apologies for raising it again, but is it not possible to shield the main forum page(s) that show each board and its most recent post? Or would that a problem, one of these being the "front page". Are working titles the only answer?

best,

Matt
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  #2  
Unread 07-22-2014, 07:52 AM
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Maryann Corbett Maryann Corbett is offline
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I've been accused of worrying far too much about this issue, and perhaps I could dig up the threads where that worrying occurred. But I don't mind doing it again

It would be technically possible to shield the main page. The trouble is that doing so would prevent Eratosphere's main presence from turning up in people's search results. That would mean that people who have heard a little about it and want to look for it wouldn't find it in the normal way. It would also mean that fewer people would stumble on it. That might reduce the number of people who discover Able Muse and Able Muse Press, and I'm pretty sure that's a result Alex doesn't want.

Knowing how few people who join actually stick around to contribute to the conversation, I'd hate to see anything reduce the number of people who find us and look in and perhaps join.
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  #3  
Unread 07-22-2014, 08:07 AM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is online now
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Matt, it doesn't matter if a "working title" shows up in Google, since an editor checking for prior publication will presumably not do a search for the working title. As far as the poem itself is concerned, the original post can always use the no-follow tags to hide it from the bots. It's only because the no-follow tags don't work on titles in the menus that it's necessary to change the title.
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  #4  
Unread 07-22-2014, 08:56 AM
Michael Cantor Michael Cantor is offline
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What Maryann said and what Roger said.

Personally, I think this "threat" is overblown. I don't believe that too many editors really care about temporary workshop posts and even fewer bother googling. And if it worries you, use a different title. (And keep in mind, that if somebody were that determined to search you out, all they would have to do is join the Sphere.) The fact is, that we've had numerous posts on this topic, but I'm not aware of anywhere - except for one British humor competition, whose name escapes me, and I'm too lazy to check - where it's become a factor.
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  #5  
Unread 07-22-2014, 09:05 AM
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R. Nemo Hill R. Nemo Hill is offline
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What Michael said.
It's a tempest in a teapot.

Memo
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  #6  
Unread 07-22-2014, 09:08 AM
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Janice D. Soderling Janice D. Soderling is offline
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Crossposted with a bunch of folks.

I don't always, but sometimes, use the "no index" tag and a working title. But I am nonetheless always honest and aboveboard with the editors to whom I submit. I do not want to alienate myself from editors by attempting to deceive them.

What I usually say is this/these poem(s) "are my original work, not published in print or online in any literary journal, and not submitted to any other forum". (I rarely do simultaneous submissions, and when I do, I say so.)

When it seems a fuller disclosure is necessary--for instance I'm submitting to a new journal whose editorial policy I am not familiar with--I will perhaps add "this poem has appeared in a workshop forum in a version differing from the finalized poem now submitted.

It goes without saying that posting a poem that has some good intentions or qualities but fails to make it across the finish line, is good for all of us, for all participants. For the poet with a blind spot in her eye, for the newer learners who come to realize that there are differing opinions about what is lacking, and none or more than one suggestion to fix it may be correct. And for the old hands who relish digging into a failed effort to suggest ways to resuscitate it is a boon.

In short, that is the purpose of a workshop--it's not a vanity publishing site, it's a learning site, a discussion of possibilities.

Most of the poems I submit to editors have never been aired in previous workshopping. But when I get stuck (as with my current thread poem) and come to this excellent po-community to tell me what I suspect but am having a hard time admitting to myself (that I wrote a stinker and don't know how to de-stink it), I try to remember to preface it with a fake name and no-index-tag. Such a poem isn't something I want on my track record; it is not really a child I want to own up to birthing. It is a workshop item that I may or may not eventually succeed in turning into a decent poem.

I started using tags and false titles when some of my unfinished and abandoned poems/translations which were not (in my view) finalized, appeared in various blogs. Sometimes intact, sometimes with good lines reworked into another's poem. Sometimes with my name and sometimes without. I think using the whole poem with my name is meant as a friendly gesture, though it used to make me cross because only I can say when the poem is final or discarded.

Tags and fake titles are probably not of much use, they would not deter anyone determined to disregard etiquette, they don't wrap the poem in a cloak of invisibility, but are at least an indicator that I regard the poem as still in the pipeline.

Matt asks: How long do things remain on the internet? A long, long time. Which is why it is a good idea not to swear and insult and hurl nasty, misspelled, and ungrammatical phrases that will come back to haunt your character in years to come. (Not that I am accusing Matt of this: just making a general statement.)

Last edited by Janice D. Soderling; 07-22-2014 at 09:13 AM.
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  #7  
Unread 07-22-2014, 09:26 AM
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W.F. Lantry W.F. Lantry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janice D. Soderling View Post
Matt asks: How long do things remain on the internet? A long, long time.
More specifically, it used to be google's cache lasted about 30 days, but that was a while ago, and I wouldn't bet the farm on any number these days.

This comes up in many workshops, but it's a moot issue. Editors don't care. In fact, the opposite may be true: many here have stories of workshopping a poem and having an editor write them and ask "can I have that one for my next issue?"

Remember the old days, when people would carefully write the letter c with a little circle around it before they photocopied their work and handed it around, because they were worried someone might steal their poem? This issue belongs in the same basket. Yes, it might make it easier to defend authorship in court. But when was the last time one actually had to do that?

Best,

Bill
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  #8  
Unread 07-22-2014, 09:27 AM
Matt Q Matt Q is offline
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Thanks Maralynn, that makes sense.

Roger, thanks. I'd understood what the working titles were for, but please thanks for the heads up on using tags. I've searched and found the instructions. Since that took some time, and others may be interested, the suggestion is this: Add this line as the first line of your post.
<META NAME=”ROBOTS” CONTENT=”NOARCHIVE,NOINDEX”>
Then change the font colour to white to make it disappear.

There are several reasons why I'm rather dubious of this. First, the proper place for a meta-tag is in the page header (which we have no access to). A robot has no reason to look in the body of the page for these instructions.

Second, if the web browser were interpreting this as an HTML instruction it wouldn't appear on the page (and we wouldn't need to make it go white to disappear it). So if my browser doesn't see this as HTML, why should a bot.

Third, although has been suggested by those who've tried it that it has some effect E. Shaun Russell's test failed, as you can see if you search on the phrase he tried protecting about six years ago.

Of course, that doesn't mean I won't try it, it's no effort after all, but I'm certainly not holding my breath.

Michael, thanks. What you say makes sense. I'm very new to the whole publishing thing and so have no personal experience in this area.

Memo,
I see you are using an altered name to prevent yourself from being spidered. Good plan, I shall henceforth refer to myself as Natt

Janice thanks, that's interesting and useful too.

Thanks all, I guess I'm just used to posting everything with complete impunity, but now that I've starting thinking about the possibility of publication, I suddenly feel a little exposed ....

Thanks again,

Natt

Last edited by Matt Q; 07-22-2014 at 09:45 AM.
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  #9  
Unread 07-22-2014, 09:38 AM
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Janice D. Soderling Janice D. Soderling is offline
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The tag you googled forth is not the one recommended. Check out Alex's thread
http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/showth...ighlight=index

in staff announcements.

The thread title is: Revisiting Google protection for workshop threads
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  #10  
Unread 07-22-2014, 09:44 AM
Matt Q Matt Q is offline
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Bill,

Sorry cross-posted with you. I hadn't thought of this a copyright-style issue. More about what would happen if an editor received your poem and stuck it's title into Google and there your poem was. So for me, I guess, it would be how to avoid being found by a cursory search, that's all.

And you are right, there are also benefits to having editors seeing one's poems on forums. It's not all doom and gloom by any means!

best,

Matt
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