[Andrew Frisardi]

Yes, wonderful thread. Janice, wouldn’t warriors of that time and place, at least in a heroic poem, be more cheered by a raucous raven than a sweet-singing blackbird? They weren’t John Keats.

A medieval bestiary that I have, translated from a twelfth-century Latin source, says two things about ravens: They were thought not to feed their young until the black of their feathers showed; and the first part of a corpse they pecked out was the eyes. And both these images strike me as things a warrior would think were pretty cool. The raven in the early morning could be a sort of mascot-shout.

[Janice D. Soderling]

PS to Michael.

Yes, the raven was sent out before the dove but we don't know what happened to it. I don't think the brain behind Beowulf would have access to that information as the action takes place in a very limited geographic area (Geat = Götaland, both east and west) and Denmark (which at that time controlled southern Sweden).

Of course, I am not saying so with any degree of certainty, but it doesn't seem probable to me. Until proven wrong, I'll stick to my notion that a Christian veneer has been superimposed on a pagan epic poem.

Likely I am not the first or only one to entertain this idea. I'm looking forward to the arrival of my new books.

[Janice D. Soderling]

Crossposted with Andrew.

Yes, I understand your point. But the context (to me) seems to call for a joyous blackbird rather than a raven. Also the blackbird sings at night. I don't believe the raven calls (or sings) nighttime.

Thanks again to all who have contributed thoughts and new angles.

[Charlie Southerland]

Janice, I have heard the raven (Crow) caw at night but only when disturbed on the roost, and on another occasion, rousted from his roost. It's pretty rare, but I've seen it while coon hunting late at night. Also, if a raven knows that there is shelled corn scattered on the ground, he/they will come off the roost at the earliest of dawn to feed. I've seen them do it while deer hunting from my blind. I've also seen them peck out the eyes of fresh kills. It's fascinating. And then there's the time I saw five possums come out the back end of a dead cow that Dad kicked one night while we were coon hunting, but that's another story.

[Emitt Evan Baker]

I read as much as I can about corvids. I think it was Heinrich's work in the The Mind of the Raven that talked about "happy" raven calls for friends as opposed to angry calls for foes and experiments showing the bird's memory of human faces as friend or foe even after years apart.
There are also anecdotal accounts of people experiencing rare night calls from crows and ravens that "warn" them of what (to the teller's of the tales) are mystical future happenings.

[Andrew Frisardi]

It's not deep night in the scene, it is just before dawn. I have definitely heard the little buggers at that hour.

[Bill Carpenter]

Great, Emitt. Check out Mark Cocker's Crow Country, a recommendation from Steve Bucknell.

Ravens fed Elijah, right? And the Lord feeds His ravens.

[Matt Q]

Janice,

There's an article called "The Function of the "Hrefn Blaca": "Beowulf" 1801" by Kathryn Hume; Modern Philology Vol. 67, No. 1 (Aug., 1969), pp. 60-63 which seems to address this question (insofar as I've skimmed both it and this thread). It points out that Ravens do cry at daybreak, and in Norse and Latin literature are augeries of both good and bad fortune and concludes: "Whereas in the past the Danes frequently heard wip up dhafen, micel morgensweg (11 128-29), on this morning the raven contributes a blithe matins. Heorot, though once dishonored, is now redeemed, and it again towers high and gabled as it did before Grendel's depredations. Even as night is no longer fearsome, the raven is no longer a harbinger of slaughter, and the change in its role reinforces the edwenden in the condition of the Danes. Thus by altering a bird normally associated with carnage and ill omen to a bird of joy, victory and light, the poet has created a symbol which epitomizes this general change". PM me an email address if you'd like a pdf of the article.

Matt

[Tim Murphy]

I think it's in what I call The Lament of the Old Man, that the speaker's son is crucified and the hrefn pecks out his eyes, one of the truly great passages in Beowulf. That's me, not Alan, by the way. Not that anyone can tell the difference. Unlike Heaney, we are invisible as translators.

If anyone wants to read our Wulf, I'd recommend the Longman Anthology of World Literature, vol II, The Middle Ages. It has Dick Davis' Conference of the Birds, Bill Merwin's El Cid, lots of Vikram Seth's T'ang Dynesty translations, truly a great book.

I think the poet just made a mistake calling the raven's croak joyful. As everyone knows, we all make mistakes! Charlie, the raven is not a crow, but a much bigger bird. I have to go to the Rockies to see them.

[Michael Juster]

Janice:

Since you fell into my trap by correctly noting the lack of a referential text, the University of Toronto is releasing my translation of Aldhelm's Aenigmata (with an extensive commentary--the first) on November 18.

To slay the dragons of Lord Amazon, they are offering 30% discounts if you preorder directly from them. You can go to @amjuster at Twitter if you want to see part of the very cool cover they created.

For that dragon-slaying discount: http://www.utppublishing.com/Saint-A...s-Riddles.html. I would also note that the release is a mere five weeks before Christmas for those of you who have friends who are fans of riddles, the Anglo-Saxon period, or God.

Mike