[AZ Foreman]

"Poetry suffers from overplus of allusions. The problem is when poets choose only those allusions corresponding to the subject of their poem, arranging them according to category, as if they were collating references by subject matter. Even if they do a good job, what's the point? If however one can imbue an allusion with one's own meaning, borrowing from an ancient event to express fresh intent, then any amount of allusions may be used without detracting from the poem."
(詩家病使事太多，蓋皆取其與題合者類之，如此乃是編事，雖工何益？若能自出己意，借事以相發明，情態畢出 ，則用事雖多，亦何所妨)
-Wáng Ānshí, quoted in Cài Jūhòu's "Remarks on Poetry", tr. Yours Truly

[RCL]

This seems like the usual understanding of allusion. Does he provide examples that indicate how it works?

[Roger Slater]

It seems to me that if there's going to be an allusion, there ought to be a purpose behind it. If the subject matter of the allusion has nothing to do with the poem in which the allusion appears, and the reader is simply being asked to recall another phrase in another poem that has no real relationship with the current poem, then wouldn't it merely be a pointless distraction? I think it clearly would be, which makes me think that I don't fully understand the point that Wáng Ānshí is making in this particular quote.

[Julie Steiner]

I often suspect that the purpose behind a seemingly purposeless allusion is actually twofold: to show off the author's education, and to hide the fact that the author has no ideas of his or her own.

But when allusions are used to add a new dimension to something that was already worthwhile in its own right, I'm all for them. I also appreciate it when the alluding author finds something worthwhile but un-obvious in the allusion, and shares that with us so we can see it, too.

I think that's what this Wáng Ānshí meant, too.

[Kyle Norwood]

Am I wrong to think that allusions are much more common in Chinese poetry than in English-language poetry? That allusion is used by Chinese poets to place a poem within a 4000-year tradition? . . . Though perhaps modern and contemporary Chinese poets are less prone to do this. My knowledge of Chinese poetry is sketchy, so I'm happy to be corrected if necessary.

As a corollary question, is over-allusiveness really a big problem in contemporary English-language poetry?

[Julie Steiner]

Originally Posted by Kyle Norwood

As a corollary question, is over-allusiveness really a big problem in contemporary English-language poetry?

Those of us who weren't English majors are inclined to think so. I for one would appreciate more notes when poems contain literary allusions. But many poets are afraid to include them, because so many English majors complain vociferously that these are condescending and insulting.

For the record, no, not everybody knows that a reference to undercooked pancakes must surely evoke some minor poem by James Merrill. And if a degree in English literature is the prerequisite to read someone's poems, I'll skip them.

But Kyle, I think you're probably onto something with the idea that Chinese poets have probably been expected to show a great degree of deference and respect to their literary elders, both living and dead, and allusions would be a way of showing this. I know nothing about Chinese poetry, either before or after various Communist reforms, but that attitude would be very Confucian.

[Michael F]

Julie, I think you said it well.

I generally resent recondite allusions, and I think they work at cross-purpose to one of the qualities of great art, which is universality (though I admit this quality is in practice unattainable). I don’t mind Frost invoking Ganymede, or Yeats referring to Catullus, which aren’t particularly obscure allusions, but when an English poet quotes a poet in Provencal or a dramatist in ancient Greek (which he can’t really read), I find it pedantic and even irritating.

One thing I do enjoy very much is when a poet steals a phrase from a master poet, and the 'allusion' works in context. You don’t have to recognize or place the phrase, but if you do, it’s an added delight. Sort of like finding the pickle on the Christmas tree, or the afikoman at a seder.

[Michael Juster]

John Milton alludes to a fault.

[RCL]

Eliot does a pretty good job of it as well.

[W.F. Lantry]

In practical terms, it seems allusions are only detrimental when the reader consciously notices them. Or if they're used accidentally. Otherwise, they may be quite useful in arousing nuances of emotion. Imagine writing a poem about a blackbird or a lark or a bird-catcher without them.

In my limited experience with Chinese verse, it seems Chinese poets had or have much different cultural views of originality than the ones many westerners hold. We tend to labor under the fallacy of "this is new and different and quite apart from anything ever done before." That's wholly different from the "this is a return to the true and original and unpolluted source" we sometimes see in poets from other traditions.

And yes, I once took a course on allusion at a university, so I myself am completely polluted by academic notions on the subject...

Best,

Bill