Eratosphere Forums - Metrical Poetry, Free Verse, Fiction, Art, Critique, Discussions Able Muse - a review of poetry, prose and art

Forum Left Top

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 05-19-2017, 04:54 PM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,844
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Riley View Post
This is the type of thinking I was referring to when I said I don't take anyone who thinks Horowitz is worthwhile seriously. I am a Southerner old enough to have grown up during the climatic years of the Civil Rights Movement. Sessions is a Bull Connor-type racist. It's obvious to anyone not blinded by the racist pseudo-intellectualism of what passes for conservatism in the twenty-first century. He is an extremely dangerous man who has participated in the denial of the fundamental freedoms and rights to millions of citizens. He would like nothing more than to find ways to do that again.
Well I'll be willing to agree with you, given some examples of what you mean by Sessions participating "in the denial of the fundamental freedoms and rights to millions of citizens." I read the Wikipedia article on him, as well as several other articles in various places, and found accusations of racism, leavened by many saying those accusations aren't merited - but no concrete examples of him denying rights or freedoms to millions of citizens. Unless you mean his opposition to gay marriage. I'm personally all for gay marriage, as it happens. Wikipedia has this para with respect to his alleged racism:

Quote:
Hebert, Kowalski and Daniel Bell, deputy chief of the criminal section in the Civil Rights Division, testified that they considered Sessions to have been more welcoming to the work of the Civil Rights Division than many other Southern US Attorneys at the time.[22][25] Sessions has always defended his civil rights record, saying that "when I was [a U.S. Attorney], I signed 10 pleadings attacking segregation or the remnants of segregation, where we as part of the Department of Justice, we sought desegregation remedies".[33] Critics later argued that Sessions had exaggerated his involvement in civil rights cases. Michigan Law professor Samuel Bagenstos, reviewing Sessions's claims, argued that "[a]ll this shows is that Sessions didn't completely refuse to participate in or have his name on pleadings in cases that the civil rights division brought during his tenure ... These four cases are awfully weak evidence of Sessions's supposed commitment to civil rights."[34]
I'll be the first to admit, often Wikipedia is remiss and leaves some things out of their articles, but I've found them to be pretty objective, and considering your certainty on the subject, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and suspect that you have information that can enlighten me, in which case, I'll be happy to change my tune and agree that Sessions is dangerous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Riley View Post
But I suppose this is a question open for discussion and debate. Horowitz's rantings are not.
I've read his book, The Politics of Bad Faith front to back, and re-read much of it, and found nothing I would call "ranting", just a reasoned, fact-based account of the failure of communism and the subsequent hysteria of the radical Left in trying to deny that it was (and is) a failure. Not only that, if you strongly disagree with someone's ideas, then all the more reason to debate them. Hand-waving and dismissal is good for nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Brancheau View Post
"You cannot collectively punish a people..." Yeah, that's right. Both Andrew's and John's last contributions make this thread worthwhile. I wasn't familiar with Horowitz before this thread. What an ass.
I'd have to watch the interview again to put the remark in context, but taken on the surface, "You cannot collectively punish a people..." sounds like something I might agree with. It all depends on how he meant it.

I'm much more interested in Dave Rubin than Horowitz, anyway. Here's another good interview, again on the subject of the regressive left, with Larry Elder:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFrfV-y_VC8&t=214s

Last edited by William A. Baurle; 05-19-2017 at 06:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-19-2017, 05:47 PM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: England
Posts: 1,157
Default

Hey Andrew,

Thank you for accepting the challenge to explain this to me. I remain unconvinced and sceptical. Of course there are Palestinians who fit the description you give: secular-minded, poets, strong women etc. Why wouldn't there be? People are wonderful creatures individually. Ideologies, however, can be dangerous. I want a world of freedom of speech, of expression, of equal rights for women, for gay people, of freedom of and from religion (I know. I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one). I just don't think that if Palestine got their way in the Middle East the result would be anything remotely resembling these ideals. Do you? Really?
As an atheist and refusenik to any form of group-think I can only say what I see and what I honestly think. I have no more respect for religion than I do for any other idea. And I think the current form of Sunni Islam — along with fascism, Mao-style communism and fundamental Christianity — is one of the world's Bad Ideas. I don't think this about Judaism, Buddhism, the Church of England or even Western-style benign capitalism. Why is this? Does it make me an Islamophobe? (answer: no) Right wing? (certainly not) A bad person? (I don't think so). You say that 'There are people that support Palestine because they are anti-Semitic schmucks. I believe they are the minority.' I'm sure that's true. Aren't there also others on the left who support Palestine because they are knee-jerk anti-American imperialism at whatever cost, who ignore the fact that the ideology of Sunni Islam is pretty much the antithesis of progressive liberal values? I realise that I probably sound like some 'alt-right' cheerleader to you now but I absolutely refuse that label. And wasn't that Bill's original point? That to have opinions that fly in the face of some prescribed, acceptable way of thinking immediately gets you labelled? All I know is that the left (whatever that means) does seem a little confused.

But just in case anyone doubts my leftist credentials, let it be known I shall be voting Labour in two weeks time as I have in every election for the last twenty years, despite Mr Corbyn being a Hamas loving terrorist sympathiser (thank you Daily Mail). So. Go Jeremy!

Cheers.

Edit: Cross posted with Bill. I still haven't watched this Horowitz guy. Sorry.

Last edited by Mark McDonnell; 05-19-2017 at 06:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-19-2017, 06:23 PM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,844
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McDonnell View Post
Aren't there also others on the left who support Palestine because they are knee-jerk anti-American imperialism at whatever cost, who ignore the fact that the ideology of Sunni Islam is pretty much the antithesis of progressive liberal values?
I may be wrong, being no authority on Islam, but I'm pretty sure Sunni Islam is generally more progressive than Shia Islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McDonnell View Post
I realise that I probably sound like some 'alt-right' cheerleader to you now but I absolutely refuse that label. And wasn't that Bill's original point? That to have opinions that fly in the face of some prescribed, acceptable way of thinking immediately gets you labelled? All I know is that the left (whatever that means) does seem a little confused.
Yes, that was my entire point of starting this thread: NOT to raise Horowitz, or even Rubin (though I do think of Rubin as 'heroic' in his ability to be utterly objective, a trait which Horowitz may have had when he wrote the book I cited, but has since lost due to years of being attacked and ridiculed by the people he 'betrayed') up to hero status, but as a springboard for a discussion on the futility of political labels in today's world.

I like the interview with Larry Elder even better than the one with Horowitz. Elder is so plain speaking and so eloquent, and seems to have a much thicker skin than Horowitz.

I probably seem to a lot of my peers here as an alt-right cheerleader myself. I got into hot water for defending Milo what's-his-name a while back, and now I'm in it again for defending David Horowitz.

I wonder if I'll be in it even deeper for thinking Larry Elder has his thoughts well in order? ** Edited in: And is, at least statistically, correct on most things.

Ultimately - who cares. If you care about ideas, and you feel passionately that something is terribly wrong with the world - and that's probably all of us here, though for different reasons - then you should be able to take some heat.

Bring it!

About Israel/Palestine. I'm no Zionist, hell I'm not even Jewish, and I wouldn't call myself a passionate defender of the State of Israel, but I do know one thing: if I had to jump out of a plane with a parachute over the area, I'd sure as hell hope I landed in Israel.

Last edited by William A. Baurle; 05-20-2017 at 03:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-20-2017, 03:15 AM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: England
Posts: 1,157
Default

Yeah, maybe. This thread is probably an object lesson in why I shouldn't talk about politics or religion ha.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-20-2017, 09:13 AM
John Riley John Riley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 3,181
Default

When we're to a point of needing concrete proof of Jefferson Beauregard Sessions' efforts to deny African American citizens' Constitutional rights I question the seriousness of the discussion. He was denied a Federal judgeship because of his racist political efforts back when the nation still had some decency on these things and has since becoming Attorney General directed Federal attorneys to put low-level drug users in prison for a long as possible. He has been active in the GOP effort to deny African American citizens their voting rights ever since the Supreme Court make racist gerrymandering and franchise denial legal again.

This is tiresome. If someone feels it is necessary to have David Horowitz protect the country from the radical Marxist left-wing that is on the verge of taking us over than so be it. Clearly, Horowitz's perceived threats are so much more dangerous than out of control bankers and having Donald Trump controlling the nuclear codes. Let's focus on the Marxist professor while Jeff Sessions fills the prisons back up with Americans who are addicted to the opioids the pharmaceutical companies make billions from flooding into medicine cabinets.

I usually stay out of these circular political discussions here and always end up feeling foolish when I don't. That I'm having to make the obvious point that Jeff Sessions is a threat to the human rights of millions of Americans more explicit reminds me of how hopeless humans have always turned out to be when it comes to governance. The U.S. is collapsing fast. It can be interesting I suppose to think on when it began. It seems clear to me that ever since WWII we have made tragic mistake after tragic mistake in our dealings with the rest of the world and in the process drained the wealth we were fortunate to possess on maintaining an arsenal. This is always eventually destructive to city-states or kingdoms or nation-states. The economic system that depends on the rapid use and even more rapid dispersal of all resources, including human resources, is ultimately unsustainable and all efforts to alleviate this are either stopped or eventually repealed. The corporate system devised to attack and ridicule those who point out the unsustainability of the economic system, which Horowitz is an active participant in, and the use of racism to convince people to vote against their interests, mean that this has little chance of changing. I know this but still can find myself talking about radical professors and such if I'm not vigilant. I must do better.

John

Last edited by John Riley; 05-20-2017 at 09:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-20-2017, 01:49 PM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,844
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Riley View Post
When we're to a point of needing concrete proof of Jefferson Beauregard Sessions' efforts to deny African American citizens' Constitutional rights I question the seriousness of the discussion. He was denied a Federal judgeship because of his racist political efforts back when the nation still had some decency on these things and has since becoming Attorney General directed Federal attorneys to put low-level drug users in prison for a long as possible. He has been active in the GOP effort to deny African American citizens their voting rights ever since the Supreme Court make racist gerrymandering and franchise denial legal again.John
If Sessions literally tried to deny voting rights to blacks, then there must be some concrete proof of that available. It isn't that I don't believe you - just that if such is the case there must be some documentation to that effect.

Newspaper articles, journal articles, interviews of people who are in the know? Can you link me to something so I can assess the information and come back here to publicly agree with you and apologize for saying Sessions is not threat to the nation?

Thanks in advance.

**Edited in: Link to a video about Sessions here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b099cdb0ffb10a

Well, this article mentions him "gutting the Voting Rights Act in 2013." THAT sounds nasty - I will look into it.

I'll investigate further into this, and after I read more confirmation of his alleged attempts to deny voting rights to blacks - I will most certainly retract my defense of him. Give me a few hours.

By the way, I do not agree with most of his political views, as I understand them, since I am a classical liberal. I definitely DO NOT agree with the ridiculous push to give prison time to drug users. In fact, I'm for legalization of all drugs, in order to shut down the dealers and force those assholes to get real work.

What do you think of Larry Elder? He's a black conservative who also identifies as a classical liberal (or at least he did in the interview I linked to), but is hard on the Left, as Rubin is, and many others.

Last edited by William A. Baurle; 05-20-2017 at 02:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-20-2017, 02:14 PM
John Riley John Riley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 3,181
Default

I knew I should stop this. I posted this comment in an old thread about poetry volumes I was browsing by mistake. Politics makes one dumb.




https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...ices/97572474/


https://www.thenation.com/article/je...voting-rights/


http://www.salon.com/2017/02/27/jeff...of-litigation/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/09/m...cape.html?_r=0


https://www.usnews.com/news/the-repo...-voting-rights



I'm sure these sources can be knocked down. Liberals for sure or some such but I feel silly looking for proof Sessions would like to deny the vote to blacks and other groups. That he is a sworn enemy of the rights of gay and transgender people. Water is wet and Sessions is a bigot.

You're not a Southerner I assume. White segregationists are the ones who taught the right-wing to speak in precise-sounding gobbleygook that obscures the real goal of their actions. I've come to evaluate people by their willingness to accept what they say as true or worthwhile or not immoral. You can use these links or google. If you need to hear Sessions say "I want to deny black citizens the vote" before you believe it than you won't have to believe the truth.


As I said above I'm done. Thought I should follow through to provide you a few links. Do with them what you will.

Best,
John
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-20-2017, 04:16 PM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,844
Default

Thanks very much, John.

I will certainly say that Jeff Sessions is what I would consider pretty much far right in his political thought, and, as I've said plenty of times, I dislike and disapprove of the far right as much as I do the far left. I hate to keep repeating myself, but things get lost in the shuffle, and I don't expect anyone to remember what I've written in this thread or that, or in this post or that.

From what I've seen, I think it might be safe to say he has some racial bias. That's certainly a contemptible trait, especially in a person who holds such a high office.

But, while I was reading one article you linked to, I clicked on another link, and I see this para, from this article

Quote:
Sessions's actual track record certainly doesn't suggest he's a racist. Quite the opposite, in fact. As a U.S. Attorney he filed several cases to desegregate schools in Alabama. And he also prosecuted Klansman Henry Francis Hays, son of Alabama Klan leader Bennie Hays, for abducting and killing Michael Donald, a black teenager selected at random. Sessions insisted on the death penalty for Hays. When he was later elected the state Attorney General, Sessions followed through and made sure Hays was executed. The successful prosecution of Hays also led to a $7 million civil judgment against the Klan, effectively breaking the back of the KKK in Alabama.
***

No, John, I was not raised in the south. I was born at West Point and raised in Upstate New York. There was a lot of blunt, angry racism all around me in my formative years, and I grew to despise it at a young age. I'm an individualist. I have never understood the idea of making judgments based on groups or collectives. I am stridently opposed to any political idea or movement that subordinates the individual to the collective.

The only way to protect the group, is by protecting the individual.

Last edited by William A. Baurle; 05-20-2017 at 06:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-20-2017, 05:33 PM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,844
Default

It looks to me that the Sessions-led prosecution against Albert and Evelyn Turner and Spencer Hogue was idiotic and disgraceful. I'm glad the defendants were acquitted.

Were I the POTUS, I would certainly not appoint Sessions as Attorney General.

That being said, while bigotry in high places is indeed dangerous, the US is not Germany or the USSR in the 30's. We're a long way off from death camps, gulags, and mass-graves on United States soil.

To compare Trump and Sessions to Hitler and Goebbels, as if they are guilty of the same level of atrocities, is perhaps remotely passable as an expression of indignation, fear, and outrage, but is also a huge dishonor to the millions of innocent people who suffered and died because of those abominations.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-22-2017, 09:29 AM
Quincy Lehr's Avatar
Quincy Lehr Quincy Lehr is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Posts: 5,264
Default

Hahahaha! Is this thread for real? The complaints of left-wing assaults on free speech are especially funny in the context of a guy whose entire right-wing career has had a political purge of left-wingers from campuses as a central motif. Horowitz is a red-baiting scumbag of the first order, and Rubin is an illustration of how a variety of new atheism can cover for some pretty dodgy politics.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Forum Right Top
Forum Left Bottom Forum Right Bottom
 
Right Left
Member Login
Forgot password?
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Statistics:
Forum Members: 7,829
Total Threads: 18,572
Total Posts: 239,834
There are 259 users
currently browsing forums.
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Sponsor:
Donate & Support Able Muse / Eratosphere
Forum LeftForum Right
Right Right
Right Bottom Left Right Bottom Right

Hosted by ApplauZ Online