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Unread 04-17-2012, 01:22 PM
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Default Question for Latinists

If this were for home use, I'd trust my own skills and I wouldn't ask, but there's a larger field in view.

I want to say "I give him an epitome". (Note that it's a Greek noun.)

How about: Dabo epitomen ei.

Last edited by Allen Tice; 04-18-2012 at 09:29 AM.
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Unread 04-17-2012, 01:36 PM
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Epitome in Latin is epitoma, but you want the accusative form of it, epitomam: Do epitomam ei.

Duncan
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Unread 04-17-2012, 01:41 PM
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I goofed --- unsure why, I think my eye went to the dative --- my Allen & Greenough has the accusative singular of epitome as epitomen. I'll correct it above.

Interesting how the nominative that I have : epitome, is your epitoma
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Unread 04-17-2012, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Tice View Post
I goofed --- unsure why, I think my eye went to the dative --- my Allen & Greenough has the accusative singular of epitome as epitomen. I'll correct it above.
Employing the Greek form in Latin when a Latin version of the word exists is a dubious practice.

Duncan
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Unread 04-17-2012, 01:50 PM
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OK, let's postulate epitomam.

Now, my next question has to do with elision or nasalization of the final m.

What about epitomam ?

This is meant to be as Horace or Augustus might have pronounced it.
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Unread 04-17-2012, 01:55 PM
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I think both epitomen and epitomam can be used, but if you're looking to elide the final syllable before ei, then you'd be better going with epitomam, which Horace would elide if it occurred within a poem.

Duncan
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Unread 04-17-2012, 01:58 PM
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... or in actual conversation among snobs, I bet. You know, 'putting on the style'.
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Unread 04-17-2012, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Tice View Post
... or in actual conversation among snobs, I bet. You know, 'putting on the style'.
Well, you've got me there, Allen! I don't know if it would be elided unless it was an actual quote from a poem, but if it's part of your poem then I guess you could pretend to an elision, with all the self-irony that would no doubt entail. Others here may be able to weigh in.

Duncan
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Unread 04-17-2012, 02:17 PM
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What I'm aiming at is a drowsy conversation among the 'lay-about-the-triclinium-peeling-grapes-crowd', who are a little tipsy but all the more energized by that, and who are waving their upper crust accents in the air.
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Unread 04-17-2012, 08:02 PM
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I found I didn't really know the answer to this question, so I looked it up.

Quote:
from Comparative Greek and Latin Grammar (Andrew Sihler, Oxford 1995)

Final -m remains in L, but there is some uncertainty about what sound was actually pronounced. In poetry it does not interfere with elision when the next word begins with a vowel, but on the other hand it 'makes position', like any other consonant, when the next word begins with a consonant. The letter itself is frequently omitted in early inscriptions (even carefully carved ones). In addition to these facts evident in the texts themselves, there are comments by the ancients. Roman authorities bequeathe to us a special term, mytacism (variously spelled), denoting an objectionable mispronunciation of final -m; and there are stray remarks by Romans, more tantalizing than informative, such as Cicero's statement that 'with us' is nobiscum because cum nobis would be obscene.

The ablest analysis of the question pins down the phonetics of -m as a nasalized [w] in careful speech, which in poetry behaved like a final glide and in casual speech styles seems to have dropped altogether. In certain fossilized phrases the complete loss of m with elision of the preceding vowel was established even in careful speech: animadverto 'notice' (animum adverto) or veneo 'go for sale' (venum eo).

Mytacism, then, seems to denote the mistake of pronouncing -m as an actual [m]; before a vowel, for the Roman ear, such an [m] had to belong to the FOLLOWING word: so partem agis 'you play the part', if pronounced [partemagis], could only be understood as parte magis 'in part rather'.
So if they're tipsy & casual, I guess they should be omitting final -m. If they're being careful, on the other hand, I guess they should be pronouncing it as a nasalized [w].
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