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  #1  
Unread 09-14-2017, 04:06 PM
Max Goodman Max Goodman is offline
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Default Obscurity

A poem shouldn't mean but be (MacLeish). But it's natural to want to understand a poem. To what extent should a poem be understandable? Are there types of obscurity that draw us in and other types that push us away?

I'm frequently attracted to things I don't understand in Wallace Stevens, and almost always put off by such things in other poems. I can't put my finger on what it is about Stevens's obscurity--if that's the right word for it--that attracts me.
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Unread 09-14-2017, 05:45 PM
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Jayne Osborn Jayne Osborn is offline
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Quote:
To what extent should a poem be understandable?
That's an interesting question, Max, and your own feelings on the subject are equally interesting.

For me, I find I don't get much enjoyment (if any at all) from poems I don't understand. Imagery, metaphor, etc... all that stuff is commendable and necessary, but if a poem, after several readings, leaves me feeling "Huh??" or even "WTF??" then I feel disappointed, to say the least.

I'm not familiar with Wallace Stevens' work so I'm now intrigued as to what level of obscurity you like, and find in his poems. Can you help me out with an example, please?

I shall be very interested in others' views on this; thanks for posing the question.

Jayne
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Unread 09-14-2017, 08:16 PM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Here's how I for one discovered Wallace Stevens:

"The Emperor of Ice-Cream


Call the roller of big cigars,
The muscular one, and bid him whip
In kitchen cups concupiscent curds.
Let the wenches dawdle in such dress
As they are used to wear, and let the boys
Bring flowers in last month's newspapers.
Let be be finale of seem.
The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream.

Take from the dresser of deal,
Lacking the three glass knobs, that sheet
On which she embroidered fantails once
And spread it so as to cover her face.
If her horny feet protrude, they come
To show how cold she is, and dumb.
Let the lamp affix its beam.
The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream."

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poe...r-of-ice-cream
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Unread 09-14-2017, 08:35 PM
Edmund Conti Edmund Conti is offline
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Jayne, you should get familiar with Wallace Stevens and have a report on my desk by Monday morning.

Here is an excerpt I like. Maybe I just like the idea of it if not the meaning.

only here and there,
an old sailor drunk and asleep in his boots,
catches tigers in red weather.
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Unread 09-14-2017, 08:42 PM
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John Whitworth John Whitworth is offline
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How is The Emperor of Ice Cream obscure? It seems quite plain to me.
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  #6  
Unread 09-14-2017, 09:11 PM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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I agree, it is quite specific, except perhaps for the line Let be be finale of seem. It's a poem i have enjoyed for some time.

Cheers,
John
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Unread 09-22-2017, 12:22 PM
James Brancheau James Brancheau is offline
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Excellent topic, Max. I'm sure I'm repeating myself, but it is the number one reason I post. And I used to view this as a simply technical matter. But I think it's a pretty core factor in what makes, or doesn't make something poetry. I like to allow a poem enough room to breathe possibilities. And it's also how a poet wants to address the reader--as someone more intimate, or are you doing roughly the equivalent of making a speech/giving a talk (not that those are always mutually exclusive)? I prefer the former, but obviously this can be a barrier to understanding. And, generally, I like poems that take unexpected leaps. It's the gaps that can make all the difference. I tend to do at least one of the above and then float the poem out there, see what happens. In my view, they are all essential risks. My quarter cent.

JB

Added: And, in many cases, probably not everyone should understand your poem (just like probably not everyone should like your poem).

Last edited by James Brancheau; 09-22-2017 at 12:36 PM.
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Unread 09-23-2017, 10:28 AM
Max Goodman Max Goodman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Brancheau View Post
I like to allow a poem enough room to breathe possibilities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Ferris View Post
I like indeterminacy of meaning but not obscurity.
Are these entirely in the mind of the beholder? Are there things a poem can do or avoid doing to breathe possibilities (a lovely term), to push itself toward indeterminacy rather than obscurity?
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Unread 09-23-2017, 10:45 AM
Andrew Szilvasy Andrew Szilvasy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Brancheau View Post
And, in many cases, probably not everyone should understand your poem (just like probably not everyone should like your poem).
This. A universally loved work is a bad poem; an entirely comprehensible one, ho hum.
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Unread 09-23-2017, 11:24 AM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Max: Are there things a poem can do or avoid doing to breathe possibilities (a lovely term), to push itself toward indeterminacy rather than obscurity?

I was just teaching Rimbaud's "Au Cabaret-Vert", which ends on a ray of sunlight turning the poet's beer foam to gold. This is at once a painterly touch and a nod to alchemy, and that's a way to breathe possibilities without being obscure, which the poem isn't, particularly. I think here of Empson's Seven Types of Ambiguity.
Here's Rimbaud:

Au Cabaret-Vert

cinq heures du soir

Depuis huit jours, j'avais déchiré mes bottines
Aux cailloux des chemins. J'entrais à Charleroi.
− Au Cabaret-Vert : je demandai des tartines
De beurre et du jambon qui fût à moitié froid.

Bienheureux, j'allongeai les jambes sous la table
Verte : je contemplai les sujets très naïfs
De la tapisserie. − Et ce fut adorable,
Quand la fille aux tétons énormes, aux yeux vifs,

− Celle-là, ce n'est pas un baiser qui l'épeure ! −
Rieuse, m'apporta des tartines de beurre,
Du jambon tiède, dans un plat colorié,

Du jambon rose et blanc parfumé d'une gousse
D'ail, − et m'emplit la chope immense, avec sa mousse
Que dorait un rayon de soleil arriéré.



http://abardel.free.fr/petite_anthologie/au_cabaret.htm

Googling for the French, I found a Cabaret-Vert Hotel in Cambodia. Rimbaud would have liked that.

Last edited by John Isbell; 09-23-2017 at 11:27 AM.
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