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  #21  
Old 06-07-2017, 06:15 AM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
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Emitt:"Go behind the closed doors and look it in the eye."

There's the rub.
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  #22  
Old 06-07-2017, 09:57 PM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emitt Evan Baker View Post
Bakunin, the socialist, predicted the same in 1848.
One of the strengths of the present form of capitalism is its ability to export the suffering in such a way that you can write post number 16 without feeling any sense of hypocrisy. It called the Pinochet Syndrome.
You're damn right I don't feel any sense of hypocrisy, because there is nothing hypocritical in what I'm writing, in this thread, or anywhere else.

I have written this so many times, but you will ignore it, as so many of the others have done, who continually describe me as being right wing, which I am not.

Here goes:

I'm a classical liberal, look it up if you don't know what it means. I am left on some issues, and right on others. I am non-partizan. I think about each and every issue individually, weighing as much information from all sides, from every source I can find. I am not unique in this. There are MANY people like me, like Dave Rubin, who I regard as being one of the most rational thinkers currently in the public arena.

Now, I have explained this so many times it's ridiculous. I don't make assumptions about you, so from now on you will kindly not make assumptions about me.

As for Pinochet. Can you please search my posts, and quote any passage that would give any reasonable person the idea that I would admire or support a tyrant like that? This is a direct challenge to you. Please find anything that I've written, in any thread, on any subject, that gives you the idea that I think right wing militant murderers are a good thing?

I am for human rights, free speech, and a free market economy, first and foremost. Are you against these things? What is your position on the theory of rights? Are you okay with rights? How about free speech? How about a free market?

As for this Pinochet syndrome - I have read this bit about it, and it does not apply to me in the least. Did you mean to suggest that it applied to me? Or have I misunderstood you? Please explain further, and be very clear.

If you'd rather not go into it here, you may PM me, and/or I can give you my email address.
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  #23  
Old 06-07-2017, 10:39 PM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
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John,

Yes, capitalism has its problems, no doubt. I am no fan of greedy money-grubbers, and I have a major problem with big banks, which I think are now in the business of robbing people rather than helping them save money and gain financial security. The problem with a free market is the same as the problem with communism: human nature.

Unfortunately, a lot of people can be completely comfortable making millions of dollars doing virtually nothing. I am not one of those people. I'm pretty sure that if I won the lottery and got a hundred million, I'd give ninety percent of it to family, friends, and worthy charities, keeping only what I needed to be happy. Don't forget, I've been subsisting on barely 20K per year since 2012. Luckily for me, I have inexpensive hobbies - reading, music, writing - and I live like a monk, essentially, with no social life because I'm socially inept, and I don't even go to restaurants, etc. I'm a bookworm, and I can be happy with a bare minimum. I'm also good with money, and whatever vices I have, like drinking, I can do in moderation. Some people are, frankly, absolutely terrible with money, and are irresponsible.

As a classical liberal, with a libertarian bent, I believe very strongly in personal responsibility and accountability. If you don't have a lot of money, don't spend it on lottery tickets, or on frivolous pleasures. Don't hang out in bars, or the beach, throwing your money away. If you make 12 bucks an hour, why is your body covered in colorful tattoos, which are expensive, and why are you making a 400 dollar car payment? I ask people I meet, hey, how much did that sleeve cost you? Just for one arm covered in tats, we're talking potentially thousands of dollars. And these are the people who will complain about not having enough money for food. Oh come on, get real! Why do you need that new Ford F-150? Hey dude, I need a truck! is the answer. Really? Why the F do you need a truck? And these people will complain when they run out of money. I live on the bottom, and I am not exaggerating in the least.

Yes, you're right, people ignoring hospital bills is NOT an ideal system. I am not advocating this kind of thing, just saying that if you spend several hours in the ER, and have an X-ray, or a test with an expensive piece of medical equipment, and are slapped with an outrageously high bill, then you can't blame people for not impoverishing themselves in an attempt to pay these exorbitant charges. I don't advocate making NO payments, but I would not encourage low wage earners to try and make large payments to these already wealthy companies.

I was in a big hospital for four days in Vegas, served awful food, and given terrible, cold, unconcerned care, only recently. My bedsheets weren't even changed in all that time. My left arm was bruised black and blue and swollen from having blood drawn every six hours. I was in pain, and they wouldn't give me anything for pain because it required a physician's order, and at that time I didn't have a doctor. I have a skin condition, which requires hydrocortisone ointment, especially if I don't shave. They couldn't even give me that without a doctor's order, so my face looked like a pizza, red and inflamed. I asked for a razor, and they gave me this plastic thing with one blade that tore up my face. GOD only knows how much I was charged for that piece of junk.

After all this I get a bill for 16,000 dollars. Well guess what, I have made small payments towards that bill, but it's going to take quite some time before I even make a dent in it! And I'm not terribly guilty over it, either, especially after seeing my ambulance bill, which was obscene.

NO, it's NOT a great system, but at least poor people will receive care. NO-ONE can be turned away from an emergency room in Arizona, and probably not in any other state. ANY person receives care first, then they get to the billing questions.
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  #24  
Old 06-08-2017, 01:18 AM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Good evening Bill,

As you say and illustrate, with your moving story, the United States healthcare system is far from ideal. I suggest that it is worth comparing with the universal healthcare in place in every other first-world country without exception. Not only is healthcare cheaper in the rest of the developed world; its outcomes are generally better (life expectancy and so forth).
I use this as a key example of the difference between unfettered capitalism and the social democracy common elsewhere. The American public has been taught not to distinguish socialism from communism, and even social democracy is often tarred with the same brush. This I find both unfortunate, immiserating, and in the strict sense Orwellian; the propagandist language is unsupported by fact. For instance, to name one example, communists in the Spanish Civil War were extremely good at distinguishing socialists from themselves, as the socialists' dead bodies testify. Again, Orwell is good on this.
This point applies equally to the communist regime of Ho Chi Minh, or that of Fidel Castro. It may be convenient for an American to call them socialist - and many have done so - but it does Lenin, not to mention Marx, an injustice against which I suspect they would loudly protest.
I will reiterate: Western Europe runs social democracies. Its citizens like that, and health outcomes, for instance, soundly beat those of the U.S. Facts are facts, and worth knowing about, as I'm sure you appreciate.

Cheers,
John

Last edited by John Isbell; 06-08-2017 at 01:25 AM. Reason: subordinate clause
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  #25  
Old 06-08-2017, 04:42 AM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
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Thanks, John.

I have nothing to quibble about with regard to your last post. Very well stated.
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  #26  
Old 06-08-2017, 05:07 AM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Thank you, Bill!

I appreciate our common ground here.

Cheers,
John
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  #27  
Old 06-08-2017, 06:43 AM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
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If we want to think outside the proverbial "Box", I would suggest we can achieve single payer health care in the U.S. through regional healthcare systems networked together. It allows for proper scaling achieved in western European countries and with Scandinavian countries in particular.
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