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  #41  
Unread 04-30-2012, 11:26 AM
Cyn Neely's Avatar
Cyn Neely Cyn Neely is offline
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we hv bcum a society tht valus shortcuts.
who needs 2 read and rite
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  #42  
Unread 04-30-2012, 12:15 PM
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I work with a lot of kids who are in high school and barely know how to read, so I would definitely agree that there are plenty of reasons to be concerned about how our young people are educated.

However, I wonder to what extent we're like admirals in 1940 begging for more battleships, when aircraft carriers are what will really be needed for the next war. As Janice said, communication is now based largely on the spoken word, not on the written word, and I've found no lack of eloquence in the young people I know who have good homes and access to decent schools.

This is not to say all is well -- I think a good start would be giving teachers the recognition and compensation they deserve for teaching -- but things tend to look bleaker across a generational divide. Or so I have found these days, when I regularly want to yell "You kids get off of my lawn!" at all and sundry.

Ed


P.S. If Shakespeare wrote today he'd be no less a marvel and a giant, but I doubt he'd make much of a splash in popular culture. Prince, Dylan and maybe even Brittany Spears would have him for lunch, most likely. It doesn't change what I like or value, but the world has changed, I think. School is only part of that.

Last edited by Ed Shacklee; 04-30-2012 at 12:23 PM.
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  #43  
Unread 04-30-2012, 12:20 PM
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Laura Heidy-Halberstein Laura Heidy-Halberstein is offline
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As long as we keep cutting school budgets, cutting after-school programs, cutting food programs, laying off teachers, decreasing their benefits and increasing their classroom size I don't think it's going to get any better.
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  #44  
Unread 04-30-2012, 12:33 PM
Tim Murphy Tim Murphy is offline
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How about we just cut all school administrative budgets by 80 percent. Then we have more money to spend on teachers and everything else. And let's get over this notion that teachers are underpaid. The issue is the best of them are horribly overworked. The contemporary of mine I've most closely observed is Dave Mason. He might be the best teacher I have ever seen. His comments on the kids' papers are longer than the papers. Believe me, his kids are ready for law or medicine or business or academia. Aaron Poochigian will back me up on this.
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  #45  
Unread 04-30-2012, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Murphy View Post
And let's get over this notion that teachers are underpaid.
If it were only a notion, I'd be glad to get over it, but I think it's not.

In the long run, whoever is teaching the neighborhood kids is more important to most of us than whoever the manager is at the local bank and so forth; or whoever the local public defender is, for that matter, to point a finger at myself. Higher pay would attract better teachers, and -- perverse though it is, in ways -- give the vocation more respect; teaching is a profession that more of our best and brightest should be encouraged to consider. Much more than that is needed, but I think that's one place to start.

Ed
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  #46  
Unread 04-30-2012, 01:50 PM
Laura Heidy-Halberstein's Avatar
Laura Heidy-Halberstein Laura Heidy-Halberstein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Shacklee View Post
If it were only a notion, I'd be glad to get over it, but I think it's not.
I've got a nephew, a niece, a daughter in law and several friends who'd surely agree with you. A few of them work second jobs to make ends meet.

Perhaps college professors earn a decent living - elementary and high school teachers, depending on where they live, do not.

I read somewhere that people with comparable education make 14% more in the business world.
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  #47  
Unread 04-30-2012, 01:54 PM
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W.F. Lantry W.F. Lantry is offline
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There are so many easy solutions in this thread, and so little reality. Reading it gets a little frustrating.

Are teachers underpaid? Massively. Medical doctors say they deserve their high salaries because it takes so many years to train for the profession. But it takes just as long, sometimes longer, to train to be a teacher or professor.

Let's cut administrative budgets by 80%? People should check their facts, or at least consult with someone who has experience running a University. The truth is that the *vast* majority of any University's budget goes to professor's salaries. Everything else pales by comparison. A good example? People complain about the cost of technology. The experts say technology in all its forms should make up about seven percent of a research university's budget. Most universities struggle to get to three percent.

Crisis in education? Education going downhill? Most of this is class warfare stuff, and the culture wars. If you want to get some actual data, try finding out what percent of americans graduated from high school in the 30's and 40's. Trace the 'decline in higher education' rhetoric back to the explosion of participation in universities thanks to the G.I. Bill and other forces after the war. Crisis of funding? Thank the rightwing tax revolt people. Case in point: California's Higher Education system was once literally the envy of the world. Then came Proposition 13. Since then, it's been one sad headline after another.

But if you want to get to the real class warfare stuff, it has nothing to do with consumerism. The truth is that the well off will always have access to excellent education. That's how that group keeps its power. The schools themselves loath this notion. A few years ago, Princeton stopped charging tuition, because they actually believed schools should be based on meritocracy. Other schools let in as many full scholarship students as they can. But the size of that group pales next to the 'legacy' students. None of this will ever change as long as we cling to the notion of private higher education. And that ain't going away, because it's how the people in charge stay in charge. Its whole basis is fundamentally anti-democratic.

But the real problems are even more basic than that. Want meritocracy? Consider the legendary Chinese examination system, which lasted far longer than Universities have lasted in the west. Almost anyone (except women or businessmen), no matter where they came from, could sit down and take a test and become a member of the ruling class. A peasant's son could, and did, find himself in the palace, running the country. Except it cost money: if your son becomes a scholar, you lose a farmhand during his time of study. Texts were expensive, so were tutors.

If you think this has changed, talk to a university admissions officer. The best predictor of an SAT score is not what school a student went to, or how many degrees her parents have. Instead, count the number of TV sets in the home. Count the number of computers, the number of cars in the driveway. Those numbers will predict the SAT score better than any other indicator.

There *is* a solution: universal public education. But the right will never go for that, because they rightly see it as a marxist, pro-democracy notion. So instead, they've accepted the so-called 'British Compromise.' As was said on the floor of Parliament in the 1800's: "Give them Shakespeare, or fight them on the barricades." In other words, if we provide just enough educational opportunities, we can prevent revolution and keep our class standing. The american right embraced this in a way that made the British look like neophytes. Amazingly, they seem to have forgotten their own arguments or motivations. Or maybe they just take it as a given: "wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more..."

Thanks,

Bill
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  #48  
Unread 04-30-2012, 01:54 PM
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Prince, Dylan and Brittany. They were not for all time but for an age, and a very short age at that. I remember asking how many people had heard of Hutch. Not many had. And Valaida Snow?

What did Brittany sing? Buggered if I know.

It was a lover and his lass
With a hey and a ho and a hey-nonny-no
That through the green cornfields did pass
In the Springtime

I could go on. I really could.

Prince? Dylan? Faugh! Bah!
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  #49  
Unread 04-30-2012, 02:19 PM
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Janice D. Soderling Janice D. Soderling is offline
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For anyone who skipped Ed's link, here's a blurb.

Quote:
Though, unlike U.S. education reformers, Finnish authorities haven't outsourced school management to for-profit or non-profit organizations, implemented merit pay, or ranked teachers and schools according to test results, they've made excellent use of business strategies. They've won the war for talent by making teaching so appealing. In choosing principals, superintendents, and policymakers from inside the education world rather than looking outside it, Finnish authorities have likewise taken a page from the corporate playbook: Great organizations, as the business historian Alfred Chandler documented, cultivate talent from within. Of the many officials I interviewed at the Finnish Ministry of Education, the National Board of Education, the Education Evaluation Council, and the Helsinki Department of Education, all had been teachers for at least four years.
Go back and read the article if you haven't done so.

Bill, re
Quote:
But if you want to get to the real class warfare stuff, it has nothing to do with consumerism. The truth is that the well off will always have access to excellent education. That's how that group keeps its power.
What I meant about "mindless" consumers is a segment of society does not wish to educate the general public so doesn't matter about the quality of education for the poor or working class, As you correctly point out, the well-to-do will always be able to afford education.

Imagine what a waste of national resources when the countless brainy children are denied access to education because IT COSTS MONEY. The mind boggles. What could these children not give back to the nation if they had access to good basic and university level education for free.

Last edited by Janice D. Soderling; 04-30-2012 at 02:30 PM.
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  #50  
Unread 04-30-2012, 02:52 PM
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Haven't (no time) read the whole thread. But the first few entries make me think of the constant push to improve math and science teaching in public schools in the U.S. Exxon Mobile extols the virtues of math teachers in expensive television ads, and what Exxon Mobile wants, America gets. So. There you go.

To be honest, the only national-level U.S. politician I have ever heard say that we need more emphasis on reading and writing in schools was Mike Huckabee!!!! ~,:^0=

RM
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