[Jim Moonan]

To each his own, James.

https://youtu.be/MUB1O2cT2gM

https://youtu.be/VIR5ps8usuo

[James Brancheau]

Am I being a troublemaker? I don't think there's any question that dark blue is better than orange, Matt. And pastels piss me off. Carry on.

[Jim Moonan]

James... James...

[Matt Q]

Blue is better than orange. Also rhombuses beat circles every time.

[Mark McDonnell]

The song Hallelujah has an interesting history. It was released first on Cohen's 1984 album 'Various Positions' and the first cover of note was John Cale's, which I posted earlier, in 1991. Cale apparently heard Cohen singing it live, asked if he'd be happy for him to cover it and requested he send him the lyrics. Cohen sent him a written version of several pages with many verses that weren't on the album and Cale just picked his favourites. This version became the more familiar version and the one Cohen himself then began performing live.

I made the point earlier that I didn't think Cohen's original did his own song justice, purely from a lyrical standpoint. Here's the 2 versions:

Leonard Cohen, Hallelujah (1984, Various Positions)

Now I've heard there was a secret chord
That David played, and it pleased the Lord
But you don't really care for music, do you?
It goes like this
The fourth, the fifth
The minor fall, the major lift
The baffled king composing Hallelujah

Chorus

Your faith was strong but you needed proof
You saw her bathing on the roof
Her beauty and the moonlight overthrew you
She tied you to a kitchen chair
She broke your throne, and she cut your hair
And from your lips she drew the Hallelujah

Chorus

You say I took the name in vain
I don't even know the name
But if I did, well really, what's it to you?
There's a blaze of light
In every word
It doesn't matter which you heard
The holy or the broken Hallelujah

Chorus

I did my best, it wasn't much
I couldn't feel, so I tried to touch
I've told the truth, I didn't come to fool you
And even though
It all went wrong
I'll stand before the Lord of Song
With nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah


Hallelujah (Cale version)

I've heard there was a secret chord
That David played, and it pleased the Lord.
But you don't really care for music, do you?
It goes like this:
The fourth, the fifth.
The minor fall, the major lift.
The baffled king composing Hallelujah.
Hallelujah, etc

Your faith was strong but you needed proof.
You saw her bathing on the roof.
Her beauty and the moonlight overthrew you.
She tied you to a kitchen chair.
She broke your throne, she cut your hair.
And from your lips she drew the Hallelujah.
Hallelujah, etc

Maybe I've been here before.
I know this room, I've walked this floor.
I used to live alone before I knew you.
I've seen your flag on the marble arch.
Love is not a victory march,
It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah.
Hallelujah, etc

There was a time you'd let me know
What's real and going on below.
But now you never show it to me, do you?
Remember when I moved in you?
The Holy Dove was moving too.
And every breath we drew was hallelujah.
Hallelujah, etc

Maybe there's a God above.
And all I ever learned from love
Was how to shoot at someone who outdrew you.
It's not a cry you can hear at night.
It's not somebody who's seen the light.
It's a cold and its a broken hallelujah.
Hallelujah, etc

The second version just seems lyrically much richer. I first heard the song on the tribute album from the early 90s 'I'm your Fan' (great album - bad title) and when soon afterwards I heard the original was disappointed by the absence of some of the verses, despite Cohen's lovely voice (the beginnings of his sexy old guy baritone)

As for whether you're being a troublemaker, Andrew. Nah...

I love Leonard Cohen, but Lou Reed meant much more to me, also. Too dirty, perverse and cantankerous for similar universal plaudits though.

Edit: I see you've edited the reference to Reed...I didn't dream it did I?

[Jim Moonan]

James, I’m only reacting to your contention that Cohen was over-rated. Call me a prude, but this thread was a respectful homage to a man who was an artistic alchemist. To bring Lou Reed into the conversation is a matter of taste. To bring in The Pixies (and the other links I’ve forgotten) is intolerable!

Reed had a beat poet mentality -- I grew up in the shadows of New York City when he was lord of the underground culture and saw him perform. He was a NYC urchin and counter culture icon who focused on the more materialistic/surface aspects of life whereas Cohen focused on the human bonds of love and of spirituality -- just as Dylan focused on the social-political aspects of our culture. Three troubadours. The Pixies not so much…

Besides, everyone here is focusing on “Hallelujah” as if Cohen was a one-hit/poem wonder. There are ten other pieces that inspire me more. Maybe twenty. Most people pigeonhole him as being a dark, deep, depressing thinker. He was. He was also a lady’s man, a high priest, a renegade thinker, artistic alchemist, and philosopher. His body of work is likely to continue to resonate with future generations, but time will tell. I defend him because he, more than any other artist, helped to shape my personal world paradigm during my most formative, vulnerable years. Yes, I’m one of those people : )

But The Pixies… they are not in the same artistic theatre. Thanks for removing the links.

(No, Mark, you weren't dreaming)

[James Brancheau]

Yeah, I took most of what I posted down because, in a RIP thread, I felt it was disrespectful. (We can disagree about The Pixies another time...) Cheers.

JB

[Jim Moonan]

Hallelujah!

Yes, another time : )

[Matt Q]

Originally Posted by James Brancheau

Am I being a troublemaker? I don't think there's any question that dark blue is better than orange, Matt. And pastels piss me off. Carry on.

Hi James,

I love Nina Simone, but I love Leonard Cohen also. The idea I could compare one with the other and say one was better was just ... well, it didn't compute for me. That's what I was trying to say really.

My first response to your list was similar to Jim's, I wanted to say OK, Nina Simone is a great, definitely, but the Pretenders not so much (for example). But on reflection, I can imagine someone being in the same position with respect to the Pretenders as I am Leonard Cohen, and so again, the concept of "better" doesn't seem to make that much sense to me. For me it's more, who do you love? Who spoke to you? Who have you carried with you -- and been carried by -- all these years.

best,

Matt

[Erik Olson]

I am forever grateful I got to see him perform in Portland, 2012. It was difficult not to admire him for many reasons, yet he showed no way to incur anyone's envy, being so humble and agreeable. I saw artistic brilliance without conceit, and a classy character, marked by great good-humour. He was, at once, a genius and a good-humored man, both of which are rare enough (despite however many might flatter themselves), let alone found together. By good-humored, I mean a constant and perennial softness of manner, easiness of approach, and suavity of disposition... I was impressed not only by Cohen's songwriting and performing but the way he interacted with the audience. Eminent as he was, he came off more humble than most in a refreshing way. He spoke to the audience from the heart; you felt he knew no pretense or complacency whatsoever, and that every motion arose from extemporaneous and genuine feeling. Even for as many people as he addressed, he spoke as though he were your friend without any walls thrown up.

Here was a man who in 2004 discovered his financial manager had been secretly misappropriating most of his wealth, including retirement fund. He won a court settlement but could not collect, as the parasite who defrauded him seventeen years shirked the court order, and even refused to return memorabilia of his. But the point is that he was forced out of retirement and successfully revitalized his eminent career when no one including himself expected.

So that was the backdrop which led up to me seeing him, four years into his improbable, late-career reincarnation as a road warrior, touring at eight and seventy years of age; yet by his animation you would think he was eight and twenty, being amazingly spry, jogging on and off stage and dropping to his knees seemingly effortlessly throughout. This was conspicuously art being done not just due to fiscal victimization at the hands of his former business manager but out of love.

Best,
Erik