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  #11  
Unread 06-05-2009, 10:56 PM
Jill Domschot Jill Domschot is offline
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My problem is TIME. Women are busy creatures. I hate to use a stereotype, but it's true that a woman's work is never done. Many of the most famous female authors, such as Jane Austen, never got married and never had children. By the time I'm done working all day and cooking and cleaning up and putting children to bed, I'm too damned tired to care about poetry. That last part isn't true; I still care, but I suppress my caring because I'm too tired. How do other women around these parts do it? How, how how? The poem I have up on this site currently I wrote five years ago, and it's a newer one for me!
  #12  
Unread 06-05-2009, 11:07 PM
E. Shaun Russell E. Shaun Russell is offline
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Interesting...nine straight posts by men, versus the one original post by Carol...

Anyhow, I think the reason for less female poets in print is very simple. Like Quincy and David mentioned, they are editors who receive more work from men than women. I think this is due to the fact that more often than not, women are less interested in seeing their work in print than men are. Emily Dickinson is a perfect, if somewhat cliched, example of this: she wrote great work, but cared more about soliciting it to a few friends and relatives than she did about accruing notability for her craft. Men, more often than not have that cocky swagger and bravado about them that makes them want to thump their chest at the prospect of their accomplishments being widely acknowledged. These are hard-wired genetic traits that truly have nothing to do with the quality of poetry itself. You'd be hard pressed to find many men saying that women can't write exceptional poetry.

I, too, balk a bit at journals like Mezzo Cammin and the like, in the same way I balk at journals that state that they will not publish traditional verse / formal poetry. What is the point of cutting down the pool of potential contributors? Is editorial bias not enough? If you want to foster true equality, any good editor should take what he or she deems to be the best work submitted.
  #13  
Unread 06-05-2009, 11:16 PM
E. Shaun Russell E. Shaun Russell is offline
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Jill -- with all due respect (and I mean that sincerely...not as a platitude), I don't buy the "too busy" argument. I won't deny that women (mothers especially!) are potentially busier than men...but I also believe that "not having enough time" is a convenient excuse. Hell, I've used it myself.

If you're committed to your art, you make time for it. Use half of your lunch break for writing a poem. Wake up half an hour earlier, before the kids are awake, and scrawl a few lines. Buy a pocket voice recorder and orate ideas, lines or rhyme pairings while driving / commuting to work. You can be the busiest person in the world, but there are always ways to make time. You have to make that pact with yourself though -- that you will make time. It's almost a form of self-prophesy.

Let's put it this way: if you have time to read Eratosphere, you have time to spend a few minutes jotting down words or ideas!

Last edited by E. Shaun Russell; 06-05-2009 at 11:17 PM. Reason: whoops...only saw Jill's post after I wrote my previous one.
  #14  
Unread 06-06-2009, 12:01 AM
Carol Trese Carol Trese is offline
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As my post said:
Quote:
To join the Poetic Justice Discussion, please log on at http://z3.invisionfree.com/Poetic_Ju...ex.php?act=idx
I'd love to facilitate a Guerrilla Girl Poets Society. Anyone want to join? I am a fledgling poet, but I am a great organizer and facilitator. I don't have stats at my finger tips: what is the ratio of male to female poets on this board? I do know there are many phenomenal women poets here, and I am sure you have opinions about gender issues. Join the early discussion at http://z3.invisionfree.com/Poetic_Ju...ex.php?act=idx

Last edited by Carol Trese; 06-06-2009 at 12:16 AM. Reason: link wasn't working.
  #15  
Unread 06-06-2009, 12:06 AM
Quincy Lehr's Avatar
Quincy Lehr Quincy Lehr is offline
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Shaun--

Anecdotal evidence suggests it's not that at all. It's far, far broader.

Quincy
  #16  
Unread 06-06-2009, 12:29 AM
Michael Cantor Michael Cantor is offline
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Carol - maybe if you paid more attention to organizing and faciitating your poetry, and less to a Guerrila Girl Poets Society, you wouldn't need a Guerrila Girl Poets Society. And as far as stats are concerned - read the ones abut poems actually posted for critique that I put up earlier. There's a message there.
  #17  
Unread 06-06-2009, 12:34 AM
Mark Allinson Mark Allinson is offline
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Well, Carol, if you seriously believe that (for instance, as claimed at the linked site) Ruth Padel was "hounded into stepping down" in an act of gender discrimination just to prevent her from becoming the first woman poet to take the chair at Oxford, then I am sure Quincy's and Michael's stats will be read as evidence of yet more oppression.

I don't quite know how you will do that, but no doubt you will.

This is why I don't bother arguing with religious folk who come to the door - they KNOW the truth, and therefore have no interest in discussion.

Last edited by Mark Allinson; 06-06-2009 at 03:44 AM. Reason: garbled constructions
  #18  
Unread 06-06-2009, 01:52 AM
A. E. Stallings A. E. Stallings is offline
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There was a similar discussion on Harriet (poetry blog) during my tenure--one of the journals came out with a discussion of the lack of women represented in avant garde journals and anthologies. Looking at the numbers, the suggestion was, to me, also that part of the problem, anyway, was on the submission end (in the few journals that provided both, this was clearly the case)--women weren't getting their poems out there as much. And yes, I do think a variety of factors--including childcare and family responsibilities, but also perhaps some self-censorship--were to blame. Anyway, I said as much (about the disparity being partly how many women were submitting) and was in some cases excoriated in the comments section (by women)--including people I had written favorable blurbs for, etc.--for blaming the women. Which wasn't my intention--just that numbers on the publishing end don't mean much of anything without statistics of submissions--and I was hoping to encourage women to get out there more, and to point some light on some of the challenges.

I have never had any problems with editors or publishing, but I do think that publishing under my initials (androgynously) probably helped, er, initially. I have a number of early letters from editors addressed "Dear Mr. Stallings."
  #19  
Unread 06-06-2009, 02:20 AM
Mark Allinson Mark Allinson is offline
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Michael reports:

I checked the first two pages of threads in TDE and Metrical. 68 poems were posted by men, 14 by women.

Quincy reports the figures for Raintown:

Number of submissions by men: 43
Number of poems submitted: 155
Number of poems accepted: 8
Percentage of submitted poems by men accepted: 5.2%

Number of submissions by women: 14
Number of poems submitted: 48
Number of poems accepted: 3
Percentage of submitted poems by women accepted: 6.3%


David Landrum, editor of Lucid Rhythms says:

I can say--and I hope people will believe me--that gender bias plays no role whatesoever in the selection of poems for the magazine.

Please, ladies, tell me - do these figures and statements mean nothing?

What editor (of any gender) who claims to love poetry is going to screen out fine poems merely because of the gender of the writer? It's just crazy. Do you believe that male editors get together for a drink and say things like - "how many female poets have you discouraged this week, Harry?"

Please, ladies - that way paranoia lies.

First of all, their mag is going to go down hill fast, because others will be getting the good stuff they won't publish.

just that numbers on the publishing end don't mean much of anything without statistics of submissions

Exactly - if women (for whatever reason) are submitting at half the rate of men, why should they expect equal representation in the mags?

Alicia, I really don't believe that ANY of your things have been rejected on the suspicion that your initials might mean that you are a woman. I believe you would have the same degree of success whatever name you used.

I have spent most of my life so far looking for great poetry - why, because I just LOVE the stuff - why the hell would I want to reject anything good just because of a gender issue. And I believe that most (if not all) male poetry editors think the same way.

The great fact of the matter is that men - for profound emotional and psychological reasons - TEND to be more driven to create THINGS (of all types) than women.

It's NATURE, not a male conspiracy to keep the women artists down.
  #20  
Unread 06-06-2009, 03:20 AM
Mike Todd Mike Todd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Allinson View Post
The great fact of the matter is that men - for profound emotional and psychological reasons - TEND to be more driven to create THINGS (of all types) than women.
That should quieten things down.
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