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  #1  
Unread 11-10-2015, 12:12 PM
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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Default Bake-off Dish H--"Ode to Cassandra"


2015 ERATOSPHERE TRANSLATION BAKE-OFF
MAIN EVENT ENTRY H


Title:

"Ode to Cassandra" ("Ode à Cassandre")
Also known as "Mignonne, allons voir si la rose"("Dear, let us go see if the rose")

Lyricist and Composer:

French lyrics by Pierre de Ronsard (1524-1585), music by Jehan Chardavoine (1537-1580)

Translator's Note:

This Renaissance carpe diem poem is one of the most famous works of Pierre de Ronsard, nicknamed "the Prince of Poets" in his own lifetime. In 1545, the 20-year-old Ronsard wrote this poem after being introduced to Cassandre Salviati, the daughter of an Italian banker. The composer, Jehan Chardavoine, was one of the first publishers of popular songs.

Sung Versions:

1.) French lyrics, performed by the lute song duo Donna Stewart and Ron Andrico
2.) French lyrics, performed by an unidentified man
3.) The contestant's English translation, performed a cappella by the Top Secret Yodeler


The Competitor's English Translation

Ode to Cassandra

Dear, let us go see if the rose
Which on this splendid morning shows
Her crimson raiment to the Sun,
As nightfall nears, one yet beholds
Each of her garment’s crimson folds,
Her radiant blush your kindred one.

Oh, but observe, in such short space,
Dear, she has on this very place
Let all her beauties pass away!
Oh, Mother Nature, truly cruel,
Since such a lovely flower you will
Let live but for a single day!

So, Dear, believe my simple warning,
While all is fresh and green as morning,
Blossoming in your tender years,
Gather them, gather every flower:
Youth only lasts a fleeting hour,
Beauty, with old age, disappears.


Original (16th-Century) French Lyrics

Mignonne, allons voir si la rose

À Cassandre

Mignonne, allons voir si la rose
Qui ce matin avoit desclose
Sa robe de pourpre au Soleil,
A point perdu ceste vesprée
Les plis de sa robe pourprée,
Et son teint au vostre pareil.

Las ! voyez comme en peu d'espace,
Mignonne, elle a dessus la place
Las ! las ses beautez laissé cheoir !
Ô vrayment marastre Nature,
Puis qu'une telle fleur ne dure
Que du matin jusques au soir !

Donc, si vous me croyez, mignonne,
Tandis que vostre âge fleuronne
En sa plus verte nouveauté,
Cueillez, cueillez vostre jeunesse :
Comme à ceste fleur la vieillesse
Fera ternir vostre beauté.

--- Pierre de Ronsard, 1545

Version used for translation :
http://www.poesie.webnet.fr/lesgrand...i_la_rose.html


The Translator's Literal English Prose Crib

Sweetheart/Dear/Little One, let us go see whether/if the rose
Which this morning had opened
Her crimson dress/robe to the Sun,
Has not lost this evening
The folds of her crimson dress/robe,
And her complexion similar to yours.

Alas! See how in such a short space of time,
Sweetheart/Dear/Little One, she has on this spot/place
Alas! She has let fall/have fallen her beauties!
O, truly cruel Nature/Mother Nature (marastre is a play on “Mother” Nature and [cruel] stepmother),
Since such a flower only lasts
Only from the morning to the evening!

So/Therefore, if you believe me, Sweetheart/Dear/Little One,
While/Though/Whereas your age is flowering/blossoming
In its greenest novelty/newness,
Gather, Gather your youth :
For as it did to this flower, old age
Will cause your beauty to tarnish/fade/dull.


Commentary by Top Secret Yodeler:

I recorded this one immediately after Bake-off Dish D's ad-lib trills, and under that influence I put an ad-lib melisma on the penultimate note of the first and fourth lines of each stanza. I now regret having done so, because it disguises the fact that the melody was composed for a two-syllable, feminine rhyme in that spot. I wish I had sung only two slow falling notes in those spots, not four notes that quickly rise and fall. (The second and fifth lines do have that simpler presentation.)

Here's the rhyme scheme of the original, with feminine rhymes indicated with capital letters:

AAbCCb / DDeFFe / GGhIIh (those are capital i's, not lowercase l's)

The translation:

aabccb / ddeFFe / GGhIIh (those are capital i's, not lowercase l's)

The competitor's approximation of the original rhyme scheme seems effortless and natural.

I appreciated how logically this translation took advantage of the structure of each stanza (smaller units of couplet-plus-tag, and even the line lengths themselves) to present ideas in manageably-sized, easily-digestible chunks. Doing so feels in keeping with the conventions of the time, periodically gives the sense a moment to sink in, and lets the singer take breaths in logical places.

[I also thought it would be appropriate to let some of the notes decay, but now I think I just sound as if I'm unintentionally going flat. Again, I should have just sung it straight. The focus should be on the text, rather than on the whims of the performer. Sorry.]


Commentary by Top Secret Distinguished Guest:

The theme of this poem is at least as old as the final two lines of a Latin poem ("De rosis nascentibus", "Of budding roses") once attributed to Virgil, now commonly attributed to Ausonius:

collige, virgo, rosas, dum flos novus et nova pubes,
........et memor esto aevum sic properare tuum.

gather, young woman, roses, while the bloom is new and new is youth,
........and mindful be that your lifespan in the same way hurries away. (The emphatic final position of "tuum" is the equivalent of italics.)

Robert Herrick's riff is much more familiar:

Gather ye rosebuds while ye may ;
........Old Time is still a-flying,
And this same flower, that smiles to-day,
........Tomorrow will be dying.

And the theme has come up countless other times, in various languages.

The fact that it has been recycled in poetry so often suggests that it may have actually worked as pick-up line. This astonishes me. Personally, I'd be inclined to turn down anyone who said, in effect, "You had better sleep with me soon, because your good looks are nearing their expiration date, and tomorrow I could completely lose interest in you." I assume it's only effective on targets who are themselves more interested in flings than in long-term relationships. It may be a form of negging, designed to make the target pay attention first because she's startled, and then because she's determined to prove (mostly to herself) that she's still attractive.

The poem is correct that a woman's sexual attractiveness tends to be judged almost exclusively by the physical appearance of youth; a man has a less finite period of fertility, and thus can compensate for his own loss of youthful beauty by offering his sexual partners other highly-valued attractions, such as financial stability and social prestige. Life is, indeed, not fair, and Nature is, indeed, unsympathetic. The poem simply advises the audience to face up to that reality (in a way that happens to be to the advantage of the counselor as well as of the counseled).

The diction feels a bit antiquated in places, ("crimson raiment", "her garment's crimson folds", "one yet beholds", "your kindred one", "a fleeting hour", et al.), but the translator showed tasteful restraint. The poem isn't bristling with archaisms. There are just enough of these old-sounding flourishes to add a traditional flavor, without evoking a tacky Renaissance Faire performer in a bejewelled codpiece. The narrator feels credible as a man of this time and place, and the naturalness and ease of his rhymed, metrical self-expression has much to do with that impression.

I might have liked to see the startling "Ô vrayment (truly) marastre (stepmother, bad mother) Nature" image presented a bit more literally. And I might also have preferred more specific and horrifying corruption of the addressee's beauty in the final line. The platitudinous, gentle disappearance of beauty in general seems less climactic there than other possibilities might be.

But overall, very well done indeed.

Last edited by Julie Steiner; 11-10-2015 at 12:18 PM.
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  #2  
Unread 11-10-2015, 12:22 PM
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R. S. Gwynn R. S. Gwynn is offline
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I'd go with "you'll" instead of "you will" for the sake of the rhyme.
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Unread 11-10-2015, 04:33 PM
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Catherine Chandler Catherine Chandler is offline
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Sam, That's a good observation, but it would be the only contraction in the piece.....
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  #4  
Unread 11-10-2015, 04:50 PM
Susan McLean Susan McLean is offline
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I admire the way this one manages to maintain the rhyme scheme while mainly getting the meaning across. The first stanza's syntax, however, is very confusing. I couldn't figure out what the speaker and the dear one were going to see. In the French it is clear that they are checking whether the rose has lost its crimson robe. In the last stanza, too, it might be clearer to say "while you are green and fresh as morning." The "all" in that line feels too general.

Susan
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  #5  
Unread 11-10-2015, 06:01 PM
Mary McLean Mary McLean is offline
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I like Susan's suggestion, but would probably swap the order: While you are fresh and green as morning. I think the seducer would wish to say you are fresh (so be careful you don't go stale) rather than you are green (i.e. naïve). He's saying both, but the first adjective gets more emphasis somehow.

I too admire the natural use of rhyme here, preserving the original scheme without feeling too forced or resorting to too much ancient diction (which is pardonable anyway in something of this age).
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  #6  
Unread 11-10-2015, 10:42 PM
Skip Dewahl Skip Dewahl is offline
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Much clever rhyming here, such as, "Oh, Mother Nature, truly cruel,/
Since such a lovely flower you will", makes one almost forget the metrical deviation here and there, and substitution of masculine endings for feminine, but which our angelic songstress mollifies by elongating of final syllables, and so all is well. Very good job by the translator, indeed.
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Unread 11-11-2015, 03:34 AM
Kyle Norwood Kyle Norwood is offline
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Most of this translation is lovely and idiomatic, almost as if it had been originally written in English. But I agree with Susan that the syntax of the first stanza is problematic and distracting.

Last edited by Kyle Norwood; 11-13-2015 at 02:46 PM. Reason: clarity
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  #8  
Unread 11-13-2015, 01:31 AM
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Martin Rocek Martin Rocek is offline
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Except for the stilted syntax of S1, very well done. And Yodeler, I enjoyed your rendition a lot--no need to apologize!
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Unread 11-13-2015, 01:56 PM
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Marion Shore Marion Shore is offline
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The language of the translation is graceful and flowing, faithfully capturing the courtly diction of the original. There were a few blips on my screen. "…your kindred one" sounds a bit less natural than the rest of the translation. "Beauty with old age disappears," weakens the the more powerful image of the original, all the more so since this is the last line. However, these are minor quibbles. A lovely translation of a beautiful song.
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  #10  
Unread 11-16-2015, 03:40 AM
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Ann Drysdale Ann Drysdale is online now
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I didn't find the diction all that stilted in the first stanza and thought that the diction paid a gentle compliment to the age and intention of the original. Oh, how this theme has travelled across the ages. Marvell, Herrick etc. - and each expression of it deserves to remain true to the time of its blooming. Rosaically speaking. This does and for that I love it
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