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  #1  
Unread 02-17-2004, 05:32 AM
Janet Kenny Janet Kenny is offline
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I have noticed a tendency among critics to expect a poem to be the poem they themselves would have written. If a phrase or a topic sparks certain associations they follow that thread as though a failure to conform to the private imaginative world of the critic is a failure on the part of the poet.

This has bothered me occasionally and I would be interested to know whether other poets here have noticed this tendency?

It is easy enough to do. I am sure I too have committed this crime.

The give-away phrase is :"It reminds me of", usually followed by a quotation.

Janet
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  #2  
Unread 02-17-2004, 07:37 AM
epigone epigone is offline
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Janet,

I think your post addresses two separate phenomena. The first is that people will sometimes want to re-write your poem so that it takes the direction that they would have taken with the subject matter. The second is that your poem will remind readers of other poems and their reading of your poem will be influenced by those other poems.

I think the first pheonomenon is one that critics should generally seek to resist. The better approach is generally to try to imagine what the poet was up to and see to what extent s/he has succeeded. Still, there is considerable value in responses of the sort, "I expected a turn here," or "there is a need for some more drama in this part of the poem." Especially in the workshop context, I think the poet should always be interested in learning of such responses, even if they are ultimately rejected.

I'm surprised that you would object to the second phenomenon and more surprised still that you would labal it a "crime," as intertextuality is so basic to interpretation. Generally, if your poem reminds somebody of another poem, that is a good thing. And if it is an unavoidable thing, then it is something of which you, as the poet, need to be mindful.

For example, last week there was an interesting poem on non-met about a sawyer who lost a few fingers to a bandsaw. In response, I posted Frost's "Out, Out" merely because I couldn't read the new poem without thinking of that one. I think the resulting discussion was fruitful for the author, or it least, he was kind enough to lead me to so believe.

In any case, for reasons that I explained in more detail over on "The Discerning Eye," I think authors have to accept such active interpretation as inevitable.

epigone
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  #3  
Unread 02-17-2004, 07:39 AM
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Rose Kelleher Rose Kelleher is offline
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"Crime"?

Janet, I realize the timing of this is outside your control, but I've just come from another forum where there's a long, tiresome thread about how critics should accept a poem "on its own terms," and it's all very overwhelming and discouraging.

I'm sorry, but I will never understand why so many people want to prevent readers from giving them certain kinds of information. "When you crit, I want you to comment on this and that but not this." I'm just about ready to throw up my hands and quit offering my honest opinions on poems. Heck, it's certainly a whole lot easier simply to offer some noncommittal but vaguely encouraging remarks, and maybe throw in a suggestion on punctuation followed by a lot of backpedalling caveats about how I realize that putting a period at the end of a sentence may not be in keeping with the poet's "vision." Why should I stick my neck out and actually SAY something? It's just not worth it.

I realize that's not what you're suggesting I do. But it's the cumulative effect of reading one too many threads that start out by saying, "I have noticed a tendency among critics..."

Burned out,
Rose
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  #4  
Unread 02-17-2004, 08:11 AM
inkwellpoetess inkwellpoetess is offline
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When a poem is read, it no longer belongs to the poet, it belongs to the reader, interpretatively speaking.

People can say they are being objective, and I'm sure there are varying levels of objectivity, but, it is never total, imo.

Therefore, the box can only be wrong in the Poet's eyes.
Not too much you can do about that in a workshop atmosphere except to accept or dismiss it.

Best,
Terri
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  #5  
Unread 02-17-2004, 08:20 AM
Terese Coe Terese Coe is offline
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Epigone and Rose both make good points, but there are times I am thrilled to have a respondent rewrite a line: quite simply, when the line is better. It is an act of generosity and warmth.

This is true in either light verse or serious: a gift is a gift. The difference is that here one can return the gift without stigma or discourtesy. No line in the Returns Department, either.

On "this reminds me": of course the problem only arises when the respondent is reminded of something the poet believes should be thought inferior to his or her work.

If someone said, "this reminds me of Euripides" or quotes Larkin or Sappho, how could that possibly be a problem? Don't people major in literature for just such a purpose, among others?

Terese

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Unread 02-17-2004, 11:08 AM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is offline
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I think what often happens is that the poet has failed to convey her own private imaginative world, and then grows impatient with critics who fail to see what the poet intended but never got down on paper.

At any rate, I see nothing wrong with suggesting to a poet that she develop themes and issues that may not have been those she "intended" to develop. What's wrong with saying, "I find what you said in the third stanza to be the most interesting part of the poem, and perhaps you should flesh that out more and omit the stuff in the first two stanzas"? Sure, the poet "intended" to include the first two stanzas, but I believe that a critic can also help reshape the poet's original intent, not just provide pointers on how to satisfy that original intent.

Of course, there's no problem in any event, since the poet isn't obliged to follow any suggestions and shouldn't be resentful if people make suggestions that don't ultimately prove helpful. We've all offered and received tons of comments that have been ignored. Even in a lengthy thread with a dozen or more comments, I feel well served if there's even one comment that I find useful in my approach to a poem. I don't consider the remaining comments to be a waste of time or a "crime" against my poem.

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  #7  
Unread 02-17-2004, 11:49 AM
Kevin Andrew Murphy Kevin Andrew Murphy is offline
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Rose,

With this:

"When you crit, I want you to comment on this and that but not this."

I personally find this valid in a workshop setting, because when a writer is about to tackle a taboo subject or make use of terribly unfashionable poetic tools (inversions, elisions, poetic diction, etc.) it's useful to say beforehand "I would like to work on the meter and the humor in this piece" with it understood that "I do not wish to hear the political counterargument to my political argument in verse, since I think we are all aware that a particular political figure is not, in fact, an incontinent baboon; that's just my simile for the poem" and "Yes, I've already heard your 'Inversions, an Abomination Unto the Lord' spiel, and I'm consciously ignoring that advice, so I don't need to hear it again."

In a workshop setting, it can also be useful to concentrate on a particular aspect a poet is working on, at least for a particular poem.
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Unread 02-17-2004, 12:47 PM
epigone epigone is offline
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Well, Kevin, I think you ought to make that position clear to the other participants in the workshop so that they can provide you the sorts of comments you want. May I suggest that you append the following boilerplate to each of your poetic offerings:

Gentle Readers, I am well satisfied with all aspects of my writing in general and with my views on the subject matter at hand. Please provide comments that will render this piece of writing worthy of inclusion in my oeuvre.

epigone
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  #9  
Unread 02-17-2004, 01:05 PM
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Rose Kelleher Rose Kelleher is offline
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You have a point, Kevin. Janet does too. I'm sure she started this thread to discuss ways we can make our crits more helpful -- not to complain or make demands. And there's nothing wrong with taking intent, target audience, etc. into consideration. I've just been spending too much time on poetry boards, and I've read too many rants by poets who expect us all to accept their standards of what's good. "Some people like telly, unoriginal poems. Some people like sappy shlock. My target audience prefers preachy pomp." And inversions, and old-timey diction! Agh! Nothing wrong with that if you're writing in the voice of a person from ye olden days, but if I see a line like "the Kwik-E Mart where Pepsi he did buy," I'm damned if I'm going to pretend I think that's good.

I should add here that you and Janet are extremely talented poets and nothing like the above, LOL. Forgive me. I need to take a break from poetry boards for a little while.

Crankily,
Rose


[This message has been edited by Rose Kelleher (edited February 17, 2004).]
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Unread 02-17-2004, 01:05 PM
Janet Kenny Janet Kenny is offline
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Thanks for all the responses. Most interesting.

Epigone

Yes I thought later that I had conflated two phenomena.

We agree on the first point.

While deliberate intertextuality is valid from both the poet and critic's viewpoint, coincidental resemblance which a critic insists is central to his/her perception of a poem is not in my opinion.

If a poet says: "Yes I was referring to that poem", then that is fine. But if a poet says: "I have never read that poem, then it is insensitive to continue perceiving the poem from another poem's point of reference.

It is not a crime not to have read something which another reader has read. I have, for instance, a repertoire of New Zealand poetry which most people here will not have read. If I read a phrase which coincidentally repeats a phrase familiar to me in a New Zealand poem, I should not persist with the idea that the phrase is "shopworn" when another poet uses it, nor would I expect the new poem to develop that phrase in the manner familiar to me in the New Zealand poem.
very best
Janet

Hello Rose,
I'm sorry to harp on what seems to be an irritation. I didn't read that other discussion so I plead ignorance.
All I'm saying is treat each poem like a new poem and read it as closely and sympathetically as possible from that new poem's point of view.

Glad you weren't too burnt out to comment here.

Of course all poetry stands on the shoulders of other writing. I guess I speak a little from my experience (long ago) as a song recitalist. It was essential to tackle every song from its own point of view. Even when there were stylistic relationships most songs had something deeply individual to say and it was a sacred duty for the singer to find that individuality. I think it's the same when we crit poems.
very best
Janet


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Terri
I agree that complete objectivity is impossible. But we can try.

I don't see the poet as some arrogant asshole who is forcing their view on the liberated reader. I see the poet as someone who has invited us into their head and who deserves sensitivity and respect because of that invitation.

I don't agree with the thought that poets have no territorial rights over their poems. Of course they can't control the way the poem is perceived but only the poet has the authentic key. I know that is an unfashionable idea.

The poet can be interested and enriched by added layers of meaning which happen when the poem goes out for a walk but the inspirational spring where the poem was conceived is the possession of the poet. It's a matter of balance I think.

I think that in a workshop critics and poets can, and do, work cooperatively with that in mind.
best
Janet


Terese
I agree that on rare occasions another poet can give us lines which immediately solve problems and make a poem fall into shape.

I don't think it needs be a matter of "inferiority" when something is too persistently compared with a new poem, but of clarity of perception. If a critic is not told by a poet that an association is not intentional the following readers may continue with a previous critic's interpretation and by a process of Chinese-whispers attrition the poem may be dismantled.

Even Euripides, Larkin and Sappho, while probably superior, are not necessarily going in the intended direction of the new poem.
But I have done that too and will continue to do it because I'm human. I just think we need to stay alert.
best
Janet


Roger
I don't think that a reader's failure to perceive a poem's nature is necessarily a lack in the poem. It may very well be so, but it may just as likely be some lack of rapport in a reader.

I think the first duty of a reader is to discover the themes and directions intended by the writer. Of course suggestions and comment are legitimate and useful if that is the intention.

But I am saying that it is not constructive to attempt to entirely redirect the poem.
best
Janet

Kevin
I'm not sure your message is for me but I didn't want to seem to ignore you.

We seem to be in basic agreement.
best
Janet
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