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  #1  
Unread 09-30-2006, 06:20 AM
Duncan Gillies MacLaurin's Avatar
Duncan Gillies MacLaurin Duncan Gillies MacLaurin is offline
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Here's some hot controversy to rescue Quincy from his doldrums.

"A controversial book by one of Scotland's most eminent historians, Christopher Whatley, published ahead of the 300-year anniversary of the event, casts doubt on the popular idea that the Scots were sold down the river by their neighbours and presents new evidence that suggests that many parliamentarians went willingly into the Union."

See: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/polit...879725,00.html

My take here is that no matter how many parliamentarians supported the Union, I still think that they were looking to their own pockets and that the PEOPLE weren't ASKED - in much the same way as modern parliamentarians have rushed to join the EU without the consensus of the PEOPLE.

Duncan
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  #2  
Unread 09-30-2006, 08:22 AM
Tim Murphy Tim Murphy is offline
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Duncan, let's bash the English. Seriously, much more fun than that endless thread on the Middle East. It is said that the only world capitals they didn't take, sink or destroy, are Lhasa and Moskow. On the other hand, they gave us Shakespeare.
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  #3  
Unread 09-30-2006, 08:28 AM
peter richards's Avatar
peter richards peter richards is offline
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Gave !?!?!?!?

You bastards took Shakespeare. Not even parliamentarians would have gone along with that.
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  #4  
Unread 09-30-2006, 06:08 PM
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Quincy Lehr Quincy Lehr is offline
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Duncan--

This is hardly my area of expertise, but it seems to me, just going by the article, that Whatley's arguing that the traditional nationalist narrative needs to be problematized and revised, not chucked out entirely. I'm vaguely curious to read the book, I must confess.

Consulting "the people"--as opposed to those with the property qualifications to vote representatives to parliament, who were certainly a minority down in England--would have been pretty unusual at the time, at any rate.

(Sorry if this is a bit of a namby-pamby post, but it's professional caution. I really don't know eighteenth-century Scottish history all that well.)

Quincy
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  #5  
Unread 10-01-2006, 03:58 AM
Duncan Gillies MacLaurin's Avatar
Duncan Gillies MacLaurin Duncan Gillies MacLaurin is offline
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Quincy wrote:

'Consulting "the people" – as opposed to those with the property qualifications to vote representatives to parliament, who were certainly a minority down in England – would have been pretty unusual at the time, at any rate.'

I take your point, of course, Quincy. But my point is this: even if it can be proved that there weren't just a few corrupt noblemen, but quite a number of corrupt noblemen, it isn't going to cut much ice with the FREE SCOTLAND campaign which has been going on ever since.

I'm no expert in Scottish history myself, but I know enough to know that it’s a total mess. I know that the first Jacobite Rebellion came only 8 years after the Union of 1707. And I know that after the failure of the Jacobite Rebellion of 1745-6, England subjugated Scotland to 100 years of the severest oppression imaginable. The Scots language was banned – even the bagpipes were banned – and the Clearances saw hundreds of thousands of highlanders shipped abroad. Sheep were put in their place. As Tacitus said of the Romans: “They create a desert and call it peace.” I've got John Prebble's historical novel, Mutiny, sitting on my shelf – a description of the way Scottish regiments were treated by the English around the end of the 18th century – and I know I ought to read it, but I've been putting off the evil hour.

I grew up in Scotland, and I won't be sticking my neck out when I say that Scotland is a divided country. The usual pro-Unionist argument is that it was a divided country before the Union as well. And while that is a good point, it doesn't change the fact that most Scots have, at best, a terrible ambivalence about their part in the British Empire and its aftermath. I know it best from myself. Scottish by blood, Scottish in heart and soul I am: yet I am also an expert in the languages of Scotland’s aggressors – Latin, Danish and English.

My family was/is pro-English – the name MacLaurin is an Anglicisation of McLaren. I received an English-style education in Scotland, and I speak with an English accent. This means that when I meet fellow Scots, they will often say to me something like: “You’re English, aren’t you?” To which I reply: “No, I’m Scottish!” Which pisses them off royally. Because while the majority of Scots can accept that the English speak with an English accent, very few are willing to accept that a Scot speaks with an English accent. My reaction to this sad state of affairs has been to emigrate. It’s easier to be a foreigner in a foreign country than a foreigner in your own.

It’ll be interesting to watch how the 300th anniversary of the Union is celebrated – from a distance.

Duncan
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  #6  
Unread 10-02-2006, 02:39 PM
Robert Meyer's Avatar
Robert Meyer Robert Meyer is offline
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Duncan, there's always the option of stroke:

with...(pause)
uh...(pause)
aphasia...(pause)
all...(pause)
uh...(pause)
accents...(pause)
sound...(pause)
uh...(pause)
the...(pause)
same....
.............(take it from one who knows all too well)

but seriously, one thing about the Scottish / English problem, especially the Jacobite Rebellions, still puzzles me. I thought most Scots were Protestant (Presbyterian I think, and quite far from Roman Catholicism) but the Stuarts were getting closer to Catholicism; while the house of Hanover was Protestant (originally Lutheran) but the Church of England seems more Catholic (at least in appearance). Then, theologically, wouldn't Scotland support George I & II while England would support Bonnie Prince Charlie instead of the reverse?

Robert Meyer


[This message has been edited by Robert Meyer (edited October 02, 2006).]
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  #7  
Unread 10-02-2006, 04:29 PM
Alan Sullivan Alan Sullivan is offline
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"Problematized?"

Now there's a word that instantly discredits any argument employing it.

Alan
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  #8  
Unread 10-03-2006, 12:13 AM
Duncan Gillies MacLaurin's Avatar
Duncan Gillies MacLaurin Duncan Gillies MacLaurin is offline
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Robert

I agree with you about the anomaly of a Catholic rebellion in Scotland, and it has also puzzled me. As I said before, I am no expert in Scottish history, but I assume it was a case of two strong forces - the Catholic cause and the FREE SCOTLAND cause - joining forces. Not a good idea. Because Protestant families like mine were obliged to forget their sympathy to the FREE SCOTLAND cause and fight against them.

Duncan
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  #9  
Unread 10-03-2006, 03:11 AM
Svein Olav Nyberg Svein Olav Nyberg is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tim Murphy:
Duncan, let's bash the English.
The Sassenach , you mean. If we're gonna fight, let's use fighting words. An' ahm no jokin'! Ahm a tru-blooded Scotsman after mah 2-year stay in Edinburgh. Doon wi' the Sassenach!

------------------

--Svein Olav
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  #10  
Unread 10-03-2006, 04:16 PM
Jan D. Hodge Jan D. Hodge is offline
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"even the bagpipes were banned..."

Gee, you mean there's <u>more</u> than just Shakespeare that we have to thank the English for?

Jan
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