[Thomas Newton]

The largest vanity press hustle in history has seduced 12,000 poets into betraying their country at a critical time in history, just before the war with Iraq. When the war has been won, and our casualties have been counted and mourned, the American people will not look kindly upon those who supported the enemy nor the organizations that nurtured them, such as the Modern Poetry Association, the Academy of American Poets, the Poetry Society of America, the National Endowment for the Arts, the Lambda Literary Award, the National Book Award, the Pulitzer Prize, The Guggenheim Foundation, the Ingram Merrill Foundation, New York University, Columbia University, and Vassar.

[Richard Wakefield]

I think an organization of politically motivated poets is a paltry and pathetic thing, but I can't agree that questioning the president's policy makes them enemies of our country. If there were a declaration of war it would be another matter.
RPW

[Thomas Newton]

RPW,

The last time we had a "Declaration of War" was on December 11, 1941. How many Americans have died in combat since then?

Let's Roll,

Thomas Newton

[Richard Wakefield]

Yes, in fact there have been only five declarations of war in the history of the U.S. Yet it sure feels like war to the people we ask to go fight, and it feels like war to those who suffer collateral damage. Why do our presidents continue to commit our young people to war and yet refuse to commit the nation formally and definitively? It's a mystery to me. Meanwhile, in the absence of a formal commitment, at what point does it become unpatriotic to disagree with any given president's predeliction for war? I ask the following question quite seriously: When do we know we've crossed the line that invalidates, indeed criminalizes, the expression of differences of opinion or even the suggestion of alternative courses of action? Such a line exists. During wartime certain constituional provisions are rightly suspended. But for many, many years we have refused to draw it.

[ginger]

Originally posted by Richard Wakefield:
I ask the following question quite seriously: When do we know we've crossed the line that invalidates, indeed criminalizes, the expression of differences of opinion or even the suggestion of alternative courses of action? Such a line exists. During wartime certain constituional provisions are rightly suspended. But for many, many years we have refused to draw it.

No, that line does not exist, and it shouldn't. The right of free speech is truly inalienable. It is not conferred upon citizens of the United States by our constitution. It is the natural condition of man, and until such time as we collectively agree to relinquish the inherent sovereignty of our minds, free speech cannot be invalidated or criminalized.

Technology is making the free flow of information and opinion easier by the day. Publishing is as easy as hitting the Send button. It is a new reality to which we must adapt. Tightening the controls is an increasingly futile strategy. We're simply going to have to learn to live in the world transparently.

Ginger

[Thomas Newton]

RPW,

“When do we know we've crossed the line that invalidates, indeed criminalizes, the expression of differences of opinion or even the suggestion of alternative courses of action?”

I think treason is well defined. I am not talking about treason. I am talking about the Bush Doctrine: Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists.

It was not hard to tell whose side those at the first Rally For America in Orlando, FL. were on. They were all waving American flags, shouting USA USA USA USA …. At the point in my speech where I said, “…and thank Gawd that finally we have a First Lady we can be proud of”

they didn’t say “I was overcome by a kind of nausea when I received an invitation from the White House for a poetry symposium,”

They cheered, clapped their hands, waved their American flag, all 2,500 of them and yelled, USA USA USA USA…. They were holding up signs that said God Bless America, We Support Our Troops, Screw France, Hollywood Does Not Speak For ME, We Are Mainstream America, and Will All the Veterans Stand Up So That We Can Thank Them For Our Freedom.

And when I said, “I have a statement for HollyWEIRD. You are only PRETEND heroes in movies and on television. Come back to the real White House, the real world, and the real heroes that are fighting and dying so that you can have your spoiled brat "Tinseltown." They did the same thing.

It is just as obvious who is on the side of terrorists.

Thomas Newton

[Thomas Newton]

Ginger

The real heroes are fighting and dying so that you can make a fool of yourself any way you want to. Just don’t ask them to appreciate you or Jane Fonda.

Thomas Newton

[nyctom]

Cf. John Adams, Alien and Sedition Acts

Oooohhh, what a resounding success THEY were.

[Thomas Newton]

ntctom,

Do you realize that when the first nuke goes off you will be gone?

You are on the wrong side of this.

Thomas Newton

[Thomas Newton]

same as above, sorry.



[This message has been edited by Thomas Newton2 (edited March 03, 2003).]