[Tim Love]

Neil Astley (UK publisher) gave a talk at St Andrews (Scotland) recently. Mostly about academic vs popular poetry, naming names. See http://www.stanzapoetry.org/lecture.htm

[Yolanda Cruz]

Thanks for the link to this lecture. It's pretty extensive. Sadly I'm not surprised at the bias. You just have to look at the shelves in a bookstore to see it.

If you really want to see a visual example, just go to the cafe of Barnes and Noble on 23rd Street, NYC. There someone put a mural type wallpaper to decorate a large expanse of wall. You see Fizgerald, Joyce, Hemmingway. The only woman I saw, off hand, was Dickinson. No minority writers or poets at all.

Fortunately,they do exist more in the shelves but you would have to go to a large bookstore, in a major city, to see more then a handful.

However,in spite of the bias,it's lessened to an extent. At least black poets are not exiled to the "African American Studies section" of the bookstore,at least in major bookstores. (Strangely enough I use to see Hispanic writers put there too. I guess they all looked alike to the publishers, in more ways then one).

That has changed, at least, for the most part. I see Langston Hughes and other black poets in more poetry anthologies now. I picked up a book recently on the world's 100 most popular poems and saw Hughes "Deferred Dream" in there. About time!

As far as "popularizing poetry", well thank the internet for that. It definitely has its pros and cons but it has taken poetry out of the dank, dark coffee house and into the light, where everyone can see and hear it, if they wanted too. In fact most people I know, read poetry via the net first, then they go to the bookstore or library and actually pick up a book. For those who want to do more then just read it,again the internet has kicked open the door making the information and tools available.

I know some academics and poets lament this easy accessibility of poetic knowledge thinking it "brings down the art". Not so, it enlivens it with much needed life.

[Tim Love]

I should have mentioned that he deals with the bias issue. My guess is that the male-to-female ratio is high anyway in UK "avant-garde" circles - higher than in the mainstream.
By the way, the UK's "Next Generation" promotional list of 20 poets included 11 women and one non-white (Patience Agbabi - a female performance poet and Oxford graduate). UK stats (2001) are that 92% of the population describe themselves as White, 4% as Asian (Indian/Pakistani, mostly) and 2% as Black.

[Margaret Moore]

Tim,

Thanks for drawing this to our attention.

PN Review has been very bitchy about 'Dr Astley' (an honorary doctorate, I think). Feel they could make their arguments less offensively, but maybe it's a case of pots and kettles.

Whereas I think there is some truth in Astley's allegations (especially as far as they concern the ultra-academicism of Poetry Review under its retiring editors and the male bias in Guardian Books) I don't go all the way with him.

It seems a shame to badmouth the late lamented Thumbscrew. I recall a long interview with Fleur Adcock in that lively magazine. Although they didn't accept any of the few pieces I sent them, the rejection notes were courteous and encouraging.

I understand that Astley has excluded historical themes from recent Bloodaxe anthologies. This seems sadly over-restrictive - and misguided,in terms of accessibility - when one recalls the popularity in Victorian times of Macaulay's 'Lays of Ancient Rome' etc etc.

Margaret.

[This message has been edited by Margaret Moore (edited April 01, 2005).]

[SteveWal]

especially as far as they concern the ultra-academicism of Poetry Review under its retiring editors and the male bias in Guardian Books

Sorry - but I never saw any ultra-academicism in Poetry Review. I saw a variety of different poetries running side by side, making interesting if not startling juxtapositions (Andrea Brady vs. Carol Rumens, for instance) that was the first time anyone had tried to bring the School of Quietude (Ron Silliman's phrase for "mainstream" lyric poets) and the Bristish end of the post-avant poetry brigade together in one magazine. I really liked it for that.

Some of the early articles were a bit dense - though recently they've been good - Andrew Jordan's account of his work as a poet in prison was very thoughtprovoking.

I'll miss 'em, anyway.