[Jim Hayes]

During a discussion on the Light Verse Bake-off John Whitworth
opined that Larkins, This be the Verse was Light Verse.
At the time I couldn’t devote sufficient time to offer meaningful dissent,
but now that I am slightly more time on hand I can address John’s assertion.

To me this self- pitying bit of grumpiness is probably only enjoyed by those who have parents they want to grouse about and is representative of the teens to twenties brigade who see no merit in parents at all.

Some such of course become mired in the groove and turn into desolate old begrudgers.

This poem would never have achieved note had it not been for the infamous first line, and the idea that the last verse is self parody is to ignore the cynicism that pervades it.

I will admit to the inclusion of gallows humor in the genre, but not of bleak self indulgence devoid of wit. And this has neither wit nor wisdom. Granted it has become something of an anthem, but only to those who share Mr Larkin’s opinions of their forebears. And even if Larkin is right and our parents fuck us up, (my own reaction is speak for yourself) this poem is far too bitter and whinging to qualify as Light Verse no matter how broad the brush.

Hey, don’t tell me Larkin was only joking- the facts don’t support it.

[John Whitworth]

Jim, Have you ever seen a photograph of Larkin with his mother, both loking as miserable as sin. The caption given it by Larkin is 'As happy as the day is long'. Larkin's parents did not get on very well. His father, a clever man of strong character, who sympathised with Hitler,
Hitler, despised his mother, who really was a self-pitying whinger, and let it show. Larkin visited his mother regularly and indee she comes into at least one poem. I would not have characterised Larkin as self-pitying. Indeed among poets, wheer self-pity is close to a religion, I would have thought he was notably brisk. I find the poem funny and I got on fine with all three of my prents, father, mother and stepmother, very well, thank you very much. If the poem is NOT funny, then inded itis as unpleasant as you characterise it. But Larkin had a lot in common with a very English kind of comedian who uses being miserable as a stock-in-trade. Les Dawson is the man. I don't think Americans go nfor that much, being idealistic and optimistic. Your true Englishman is DEEPLY pessimistic. That's what makes him so cheerful uderneath. During the war there was a military expression. SNAFU. Situation Normal All Fucked Up. 'One of those old-type natural fouled-up guys.' natural should be in italics but Ican't do them. The people who KNEW Larkin agree that he was very polite and very funny.

[Janet Kenny]

Jim,
I'm astonished at you
Much humour has the black dagger of truth in it which is what makes it funny. Psychiatrists' couches are kept in business by the truth behind Larkin's poem. He is both blackly honest and very funny. Both are true.

We laugh hardest when it hurts most.
Janet

[Jim Hayes]

John , it all depends on the circumstance, if this was written by a twenty five year old John Lennon, well I guess it would be funny, but written by a fifty year plus misanthrope renders it too close to the bone.

I imagine there are those who will want it to be funny and wish humor into it, but it's a stretch for most people who have moved beyond the shock-horror of the f word and the adolescence pursuit of parent bashing.

Jim

[Jim Hayes]

We laugh hardest when it hurts most??

What are you into Janet?

[Holly Martins]

There's an interesting article in today's 'Times2' about 'This be the Verse'. It's probably Larkin's most popular poem and anyone unable to see the comedy in this and many another of Larkin's poems misses a great deal of his mischievous fun.

[Jim Hayes]

Here be the article; http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/l...cle4915330.ece

Seems a lot of discerning people miss his mischievous sense of fun.

[Janet Kenny]

Jim,
It's obvious that you take this personally and think it relates to your own family and experiences. It's a general human experience wider than individuals' "perfect" families. Greek tragedy is based on it. It's certainly true for my family which was very distorted by control freaks and "thou shalt not" rules and snobbery.

There's a great healing quality in black laughter. Most oppressed peoples have a humour that depends on release and reversal of pain. In southern Italy it's jokes about hunger and we all know the Jewish jokes which only Jewish people can make. Surely there are similar Irish jokes? The English middle and upper classes are famously repressed. My family reflected that in spades. They were a mixture of Scottish and English but they feared anything that might seem "common". The colonial context intensified that because like most immigrant families they clung to an outdated model of etiquette and acceptable behaviour. I was raised to be a shocking little snob and was denied contact with my immediate culture. That has always handicapped my poetry. We learn the people's speech while we are children. The poem is a great belly laugh for me. My parents were excellent people and devoted parents. None of it was their fault. Here read the middle stanza of Larkin's poem. I ran away from home when I was eighteen. It was unthinkable that I would have permission to leave. No disloyalty to anyone is involved. Survival is another matter.
Janet

[This message has been edited by Janet Kenny (edited October 10, 2008).]

[Jim Hayes]

Janet, you have no more right to presume what my family relationships are than you have any reason to presume for a moment that I have an interest in yours.

It's the poem Janet, the poem, try and stick to it without lecturing on the Freudian foibles of Greeks who were known btw, to have more interesting predilections.

Larkin's poem is simply not funny, and is not Light Verse.
It's a bilious outburst from an old curmudgeon.

The Times article linked to, quotes many eminent writers, some may indeed have considered his point valid, none thought the poem light or funny, entertaining, uplifting or particularly witty. I'm in good company.


Edited in to say that the last thing I want is to get bogged down in a side issue with you.

I know what dark humor is, I've written a goodly number of poems in that particular genre. You should know.



[This message has been edited by Jim Hayes (edited October 10, 2008).]

[Janet Kenny]

Jim, I had a strong impression that you were defending the sacred names of Mum and Dad—past, present and future.
Janet

PS: I spoke of my experiences to illustrate one case which fitted the philosophy of the poem. There are many similar cases. And if we didn't laugh we'd be lost.
Thank you Philip Larkin.

PPS: Jim: I loved the declarations by the "eminent" that they were not fucked up. Such self-confidence is dazzling. The poem's popularity rests as much on the relief of reading unvarnished truth as it does on any out-of-date shock value involved in saying "fuck" in a poem. It is funny. I think the complacent eminent persons are equally funny.

And something you of all people must appreciate— it's the TIMING. The poem is pitch-perfect and perfectly paced.



[This message has been edited by Janet Kenny (edited October 10, 2008).]