I am afraid I still have problems with both of these as free-standing haiku. Truth is, i am not much of a fan of having the third line as an interpretive statement like "peppered reality." Once again, this end-stops the haiku and takes away any opportunityh for participation of the reader. The second haiku is so abstract that, as I reader, I haven't any idea where i am when the poem starts nor do I have any idea where i am when i finish. Please put yourself in the reader's shoes. "with rations every one counts." This seems to be a statement of fact, but as a reader, there is not enough information to put it together. Please, pity the reader!

Lee

hi christy

If I understand Lee you have packed too many images in this one.
We have a person with a camera taking B/W pictures of a tree, there it is framed and you the watcher ask us to look up and see the birds just as they fly away.. that’s how I read it

black tree, white skies.
filmed. framed.
look up! birds fly away.

What I was asking was maybe the centre of this should be the photographer, we look with his eyes. We see the tree , snap the frame and move on to the next, I don't think we need to know that the birds will be shot in flight in the next second, not unless it is the speed of him you are aiming for which I think is not shown
I’m on a learning curve here, editing others work to me is the fastest way to understanding. I have even played with lee’s- but don't tell him


black tree white skies
filmed framed packed
to fly away.

with rations
every 1
counts


bugger back to the drawing board-- thanks Lee for your input ~~ henie

Mary, Yes, i very much like the change from "live" to "peering". "Live" seemed like a wasted opportunity which "peering" recaptures. We get a visual image with "peering", while "live" is just an abstraction that doesn't put us on the blacktop with the poor turtle. Speaking of blacktop, here is one of mine:

prairie farmhouse--
two empty lawn chairs
facing the blacktop

And I like your "full moon" very much. Great fresh association for a full moon haiku!

I am afraid i don't know enough about ghazals to comment intelligently about them. But it seems to me that leaping is leaping!

Lee

facing the blacktop?

Lee can you explain for me what a black top is
I'm pulling my hair out here trying to see what i'm missing


edit--- dah! is it the road?

[This message has been edited by Henrietta kelly (edited October 17, 2008).]

Good morning, Martin! End-stopping: It mostly has to do with the ideational content. When we get to the end of the poem, has the poet said all there is to be said or is there something left for he reader to ponder? And by ponder i don't mean admire the poet's cleverness or wit, but something deeper--has the poet found something interesting in the experience itself that is worth sharing? In the case of both of these haiku, what the poet has found is a particular figurative interpretation of the crickets and the corn. And by interpreting the scene for the reader, the poet has denied the reader the pleasure of interprting it for him/herself. Don't get me wrong--both of these are a valid kind of haiku. They are simply not a kind of haiku that has that extra something that I look to haiku for.

There are, as you might suspect, several ways to end stop a haiku punctuation being one of them, but it is more the content of the poem I am thinking about here.

Here is a haiku that is not end-stopped:

The third of July—
in the distance a trombone
playing scales
—Alexa Selph

Yes, it presents a "complete scene," but one that leaves something for the reader to ponder. What is the significance of that particular date and the sound we are hearing? It also has a wonderful warmth and companionability that i find very inviting as a reader.

While I am at it, I am going to comment on something else. One of the challenges of seeing haiku as form, i.e., 5-7-5, is that it sometimes leads us to expressions that we would never use otherwise without embarrassment. When I read a line like "Crickets near corn field", with its awkward missing article, I wonder if English is the native language of the poet. In fact, in haikuland we have a term for this unnatural elision of articles: "Tontoism", in honor of the Lone Ranger's sidekick. (Most of you are probably too young to remember the Lone Ranger, which is probably not too much of a tragedy!)

I could say much more, but I am afraid it is time to go to work! See you all later!

Lee

Ha! Henie - that must be just how Lee felt when you talked about the 'red centre'!! Black tops and red centres - we certainly all live in different lands, don't we!

Cally

Have a good one, Kemosabi.

Thank you for the feedback, Henrietta. I guess the meaning of the poem is not obvious enough. My point was that one can look at a situation that seems so bleak but when we look out from our perspective, we can see new possibilities. Birds fly fast, so if you don't change your mindset fast enough, you may have missed out on an opportunity.

Christy it has been noted often that my way of thinking needs a code book,

others will come have faith http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/biggrin.gif