Well, Michael, I've been using the Internet for over a decade now, and I know that poor grammar should not impede communication over that medium.

Secondly, anyone on this site has the nerve to think I haven't built up a basic confidence in the language skills of my native language? Sorry, I'm a little smarter than that, and I don't come to this site yearning for acceptance of what I put down on the screen.

Thirdly, I do other things, many other things, than come here--quite frankly I don't have the resources to focus on producing a post on a discussion forum that has the same level of care that I would put into a letter sent to the editor of my local paper.

Lastly, why is a noticeable minority of folks on this site so stiff?

If I get kicked off by one of the bosses, many of whom are kind, so be it, no great loss. That is the sad reality.

Alvaro

[This message has been edited by alvaro.alarcon (edited April 02, 2004).]

Alvaro -

Thank you. That was very instructive.

I really don't have the time to engage in discussions of this nature. I don't think this site suits my needs currently.

If I have a recommendation to the management, it is this: make the site open only to individuals through election by the membership.

Alvaro

Oy.... I'm glad we got that straightened out. I'll be sure to run a benefits analysis before I edit any of my posts to a higher standard, in future. As my brother Paco is wont to say, "Debate over commas, semicolons, and the proper usage of the subjunctive is for people who don't have a life," a category of existence (?) that fits me to a tee.

Golf, anyone?

(robt)

Alvaro, I was sure somebody was going to point out the misspelled words and typos in your initial post. As an editor, you'll have to perform that service for other people, so why should your own writing be exempt? And if, as an editor, you require writers to fix their prose, what will be your response it they come back with a defensive "who gives a hoot?"

I would think you would give a hoot, having asked about the pertinence of punctuation as an aid to clarity in communication. The reason for punctuation is exactly to avoid miscommunication. You may relax the rules if you are sure there is only one way to read a text; often that is not the case. Since the writer knows exactly what he means, he may well be unaware of the confusion or hilarity his inadvertent misusage provokes. Here is an example taken from Jan Iwaszkiewicz's "The Squatter's Son" in the Deep End, where the lack of a comma creates a comic effect:

As though we’re convicts, all our hair's been shorn
for fear of lice and numbered left to right,
we're goaded by the most appalling spite
from petty men.

I have a picture of all these men's hairs being shorn and numbered from left to right. Consider the difference a simple comma can make:

As though we’re convicts, all our hair's been shorn
for fear of lice, and numbered left to right,
we're goaded by the most appalling spite
from petty men.

Henry, each of the examples you gave is a series in which the final conjunction is omitted for rhetorical purposes:

I came, I saw, I conquered.
He fretted, he sweated, he trembled, his heart raced.

While a semicolon or an end stop between clauses would work, the effect would be slightly different. By using commas instead, the speaker connects each clause to the other parts of the sequence rather than making it an independent or unrelated statement.

If you have independent clauses that are not part of a sequence, or series, commas don't work in formal English. For example, a comma would not work in the case of these two unconnected independent clauses:

He fretted, the phone rang.

What we see on the internet is a bastardizing of the language for speed's sake. Besides, one does not have to be an editor or a writer to own and operate a computer.

Carol

Alvaro--

It's true that in many places on the Internet good grammar, courtesy,
and any mark of civil behavior is unimportant. Oddly enough,
however, in certain niches that's not the case.

A place like the Sphere is chock full of people to whom language
matters a great deal. They live it and breathe it, and wouldn't think of
committing a solecism in public, though they might speak or write
colloquially on occasion. And many of them, consciously or
unconsciously, will think less of someone who is careless about such
things. Even on Usenet, in alt.english.usage, someone who makes a
grammatical error in a post is quite likely to be the object of snide
comment.

Whether this is a good thing is beside the point--it's just the way
things are. Many people wear nothing but T-shirts and baseball caps,
but they would be severely underdressed at the average formal
dinner. I happen to be glad such islands of relatively formality exist in
the swamp of the Internet, but that's beside the point, too.

Whoever first said something about acting like a Roman when you're
in Rome had something--Romans in those days, and now, for that
matter, tend to sneer when they peg someone as a barbarian.

I rather doubt that Admin types get their knickers in a twist even
when someone mixes this place up with a Red Sox fan list, but the
judges are lurking everywhere, and life is smoother for those who fit
nicely into the local culture.

Carter

I'm sorry for my behavior--it reflects a certain callousness of spirit.

I'm sorry if I can't put more care into my posts; it is just that quite frankly whenever I post something on this site I'm in my "zone-out" mode, that I'm decompressing from a day's work. I realize that many people put more care into their postings here.

As a result I'll try to maintain a discrete presence, and Carol I feel grateful for your perspective and empathy, and I understand that I should not try to impose my values on a site designed for hundreds of people, many of whom are semi-professional or even professional poetry writers.


Alvaro

I'd like to add a postscript to this discussion--in spite of the person who said (or whose brother said) that debate over commas etc. is for those who don't have a life--because I happen to edit for a living. Where I work (on a commercial magazine), one guideline is "the fewer commas the better"--i.e., if it's clear without one, don't add one. However, as a poet and musician, I am often inclined to add commas for exactly the reason you've described: to insert a "breath," or a point to stop and think. And then I sometimes have to fight for those commas to be left in!

Claudia

I follow textbook comma rules for prose--I rarely violate them. But I suppose that principle won't work for everybody.

I think Claudia might agree that being an editor is good training for a
writer. The buck really stops on that side of the desk.

I've been a professional copy editor for a newspaper, an unpaid e-zine
editor, and a teacher of prose writing. In every one of those jobs I've
had to argue with writers who haven't got it through their heads that
punctuation is an absolutely vital part of the writing process, just
as important as grammar. If you want to be understood, to get over
the exact meaning you're looking for, to control the rhythm of your
work, your punctuation has to be right.

Recently a book on punctuation has been an actual best-seller in
Britain--Lynne Truss's "Eats, Shoots & Leaves." It's either already
out in the US or will be this month. I couldn't wait, so I ordered it
from Canada, and I assure you it's hilarious as well as instructive. As
you might guess from the title, her major point is that bad
punctuation produces ambiguity.

The rules aren't hard to learn. If you don't want editors giving
you a hard time, learn them. Violate them when that's the thing to do,
but know them so well you can argue with anybody. Most important,
learn how to make punctuation work for you, not against you.

Carter