Dawn mist hovers on a Maine lake,
The moon still faintly visible.
Three canoes of boys
Glide through this haze and into shore
As two golden fawns tiptoe to drink.
We beach on sand at Schoodic Point,
Both deer flee, ghost-like, through the pines.
Sixty years later, on this same beach,
Alone, I skip flat rocks across the water,
waiting for that moon to fade.

(That took less than five minutes, and it's what I think of as pretend poetry. I stole a childhood experience, tried to emulate the themes and tone of the samples that were posted, made sure to mention the moon - twice, for emphasis - and combined pretty-pretty poetics with some ponderous hints.)

It's crap, but what bothers me is that - with a few exceptions - I don't believe it sounds any better or worse or dramatically different than most of the translations. So? What am I missing here? There has to be more to it than that. I'm not trying to put you down, Mary, but I do have a thing about facile poetry. And Wu songs might not be facile poetry, but many of the translations (not the Pound) seem banal, and I have the impression that the strength of the originals depend on (a) the sound of the poem in Chinese (which we are not getting here), (b) the actual music to which it is sung (not here), (c) some very specific knowledge of place and key words (nope), and (d) some indication of what it is the song is supposed to do or be or accomplish (the article is vague.) The explanation I see is the equivalent of saying that an Appalachia song is sad and lyrical, and it's about mountains.

Jerry's being a wise-ass (I hope), but I think his point is well taken. There ain't nothin' in that thar tune of his that conflicts with whatever the links tell us about Wu poetry. As a matter of fact, the regional dialect might even be a plus. I think we need a Wu-Guru.



[This message has been edited by Michael Cantor (edited August 08, 2006).]

Constantly; atempting to be humorous. Or is that humerous?

Seriously though - and correct me if I'm wrong - it seems you came across a web site for Wu songs, made some assumptions, and posted a challenge here, without knowing what a Wu song actually is.

To my understanding, which does not mean it's totally accurate, a Wu song is a Chinese folk song, sung in the Wu dialect, with certain guidelines as to the musical composition. I don't see how this can be transposed to a unique English form, if it's even transposable to English at all.



[This message has been edited by Jerry Glenn Hartwig (edited August 07, 2006).]

Cantor - you're fabulous.
Jerry - you're right - I wanted to learn about a Wu Song so I could write one. Still hoping Zeiser will be my Wu-Guru.
Mary

For starters, check out the following URL:

http://poetry-chinese.com/jintishimenu.htm

http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/biggrin.gif

Patricia

So it seems Mary is referring to wujei - a form of four lines of 5 characters (kanji), not Wu songs.

So, how do we translate 5 Chinese characters into English? A character may have 20-some brush strokes and a compound meaning ? (I'll have to dig out my kanji book for more detail.)

Hm-m.

<u>Some</u> Wu songs might be written in the Chinese wujei form but, considering that a Wu song is simply one written in the Wu "dialect" . . . http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/biggrin.gif

While you're digging, Jerry, you might want to check out the following URL, scrolling down to The Main Chinese "Dialects" and a map showing where the main Chinese "dialects" are spoken (including Wu):

http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~p.../chinlng2.html

Then, to learn <u>more</u> about the Wu dialect, you'll more than likely need a Wu dictionary:

http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/clas...n/wu/index.php


BTW: After looking at the Chinese characters in the LiPo poem Amusing Myself--(see the second link posted by Mary at the top of this thread)--I'd say that it was written in the wujei form . . . but, who <u>knows</u> if it's in the Wu dialect? If any of the poems at that second link are in the Wu dialect, I suppose it might be the one titled Midnight Song of Wu.

So . . . [**shrug**]

All best--
Patricia

A 21-second taste of Wu song? [**sigh**]

Thanks for the link, Jerry! It contained a link to musical transcriptions, etc.:

http://www.iias.nl/oideion/journal/i...ws/zanten.html

All best--
Patricia

Here are the words, in English, to the most common Wu mountain song from Xiakou village:

The more you sing a mountain song, the better it sounds

The more you beat the copper gong, the more brilliant the sound

If you don't have a hammer, no sound from the gong

If you don't have a girl [literally, sister-in-law], you can't sing a song

For more Wu songs, check out the following URL . . . where you'll find the English words to: "Orange flowers bloom with round petals"; "Gifts to a loved one"; "one egg, two yolks"; ""A Spray of Pink Flowers"; and "The green leaves of June corn" . . . <u>plus</u> . . . you'll be able to click on a number of links at the same URL for audio/video files of those songs and others while learning more about Wu mountain songs (shan'ge) as historical text:

http://www.history.uncc.edu/jmflower.../mscontent.htm

http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Patricia A. Marsh (edited August 07, 2006).]

Patricia

I don't think one can write in a Chinese dialect - the characters are ideograms that were invented long after the language was established. They are pictures, not representations of phonetics. 'Tree' is a three stroke (I think - I haven't looked at kanji in five years) symbol that looks similar to a tree. 'Forest' is two tree symbols (one character).

The moment you put the song to paper, you lose the dialect.


I may be wrong, but I'm under the belief that the kanji in Japanese and Chinese are basically the same - invented by the Japanese and adopted by the Chinese. Someone please correct me if that's wrong.

Thanks for the links, btw - I enjoyed the video of the mountain song. I don't think, however, there is any connection between wujei and the Wu songs. I wonder if Zeiser's book merely contains translations of Wu songs forced to our meter, or if she is attempting to bring the feel of Wu songs to English?



[This message has been edited by Jerry Glenn Hartwig (edited August 07, 2006).]

BTW, did you catch the reference which describes the symbolism of a hammer http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/wink.gif