A great deal of so-called ''Political Correctness'' is absolute nonsense as far as I'm concerned, Alan.

I'd be inclined not to worry about it; ''go for it'' as The Oldie is not particularly PC. (You should see some of their cartoons for confirmation of that!!!)

But Annie's suggestion is a good one, as the judge is not actually on The Oldie staff. (Email your poem to me if you like and I'll give you my honest opinion.)

Jayne

I'm curious, Jayne, what political correctness do you consider to be nonsense? Most of it makes perfect sense to me, and I generally find that the charge of "political correctness" is just the last resort of someone who can't think of another way to defend himself from the charge of being unkind or discriminatory. That's certainly the case in politics in the US today, where several of the Republican candidates on the far right complain that the problem with America today is political correctness. That's what Trump says when he defends his plan to bar all Muslims from entering the country.

Thanks Ann and Jayne.
I'm warming already to the Oldie.

Bob, one example is the absurd requirement to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Happy Christmas" for fear of offending some poor little non-Christian. Well, I'm not a Christian, and for me, "Christmas" is and always will be the name of a particular holiday in the year. According to the PC brigade, that makes me politically incorrect.

I think that's the kind of thing that Jayne has in mind. There are plenty of similar inanities.

Ah, but it's different over here, Roger. We don't have your anarchist loonies. Political correctness means many absurdities too numerous to mention. We might start with the Cecil Rhodes business if you like.

I think the Oldie likes light verse, and why not. Nothing too unsettling, nothing too rude. Would your granny like it?

Unfortunately, the ridiculous extremes you mention, Brian, only give Trump-ish people sanction to justify their views on racism, sexism and so on... the loonies don't help the cause, but we all know they're a small minority, don't we?

FIRST TIME IN THE COUNTRY.

‘What is that smell?’ I asked a man who knew,
‘The rustic odour of the countryside?’
‘Eh, that’s the frackin’ fellows’ toxic brew;
ammonium chloride an’ formaldehyde.’

I sighed ‘Let’s walk along the beach, admire
the view – so what’s that murky silhouette?’
‘Tis Sizewell B; folks tell us nuclear power
is safe – it ain’t become Chernobyl yet!’

‘Is that a bulldozer I see? And there
are more, they’ve flattened every tree...’
‘For motorways – and yonder meadow's where
the Theme Park’s planned, the site marked O.N.B.’

‘And why no flowers? The grassy banks are brown.’
‘Them chemicals - they spray the crops with deet
and then....’ ‘Enough!’ I cried, ‘I’m off to town,
the country's hell, I'll beat a quick retreat!'

Exactly right, Sylvia.

But I think it's a myth. I have never actually met a single person who "required" or even requested anyone to refrain from saying "Happy Christmas" or "Merry Christmas." The idea that this is somehow impermissible or rude strikes me as a myth perpetrated by the far right and evangelicals. I am a Jewish liberal from New York, and I wish people Merry Christmas all the time, and never once took offense when someone extended that wish to me. The ones who take offense over holiday greetings in this country tend to be people who are offended by the phrase "Happy Holiday," which they take to be part of a "war on Christmas" because their own idea of correctness requires the use of the word Christmas in every year-end felicitation.

But you're right in one respect. Trump has promised in his stump speech that when he's president, every store in America will say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holiday." No political correctness for him, by golly! I don't know how he plans to pull this off, but believe him, he's very, very rich and he knows how to get things done.

But mostly his attack on political correctness involves trying to restore the American freedom to discriminate on the basis of race, religion, nationality, and sexual orientation. Restoring "Merry Christmas" as the mandatory Christmas greeting is just a bonus.

Do you have any other examples, apart from the Christmas thing, of so-called political correctness?

(Cross-posted with Bob/Roger.)

Brian, I don't know what things are like in France, but here in the U.S. there is no "requirement" to say "Happy Holidays." People say whatever they want. Many of us choose to say "Happy Holidays" rather than assume that strangers we are speaking with celebrate Christmas.

The situation here, in fact, is just the opposite: some try to require "Merry Christmas." They call "Happy Holidays" a "War on Christmas," prompting the looniest among them to threaten and perpetrate violence against those who say it.

http://theodysseyonline.com/bard-col...ch-face/243112

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/arizona-w...rry-christmas/

(An elected official made such a threat this past year, but I'm not finding an article about it quickly.)

It's another example of privileged people getting upset when people who are different (in this case, those who don't celebrate Christmas) are given equal consideration.

Bob, it's my understanding that the whole attempt to replace "Christmas" by "Holiday", or some other anodyne word, occurs at an official rather than an individual level. For example:

One of the most prominent Christmas tree controversies came in 2005, when the city of Boston labeled their official decorated tree as a holiday tree, and the subsequent response from the Nova Scotian tree farmer who donated the tree was that he would rather have put the tree in a wood chipper than have it named a "holiday" tree.

In 2007, a controversy arose when a public school in Ottawa, Ontario planned to have the children in its primary choir sing a version of the song "Silver Bells" with the word "Christmas" replaced by "festive".

... A controversy regarding these issues arose in 2002, when the New York City public school system banned the display of Nativity scenes ...

In the United Kingdom there have been some controversies, one of the most famous being the temporary promotion of the phrase Winterval for a whole season of events (including Christmas festivities) by Birmingham City Council in the late 1990s. This remains a controversial example of "Christmas controversy", with critics attacking the use of the word "Winterval" as being political correctness gone mad.

Mostly it happens on an individual and social level, fed by the press (and much exaggerated by the press, since I don't really think it's something that troubles the vast majority of people in the slightest). When it happens at the governmental level, there are Constitutional considerations, since in theory we separate church and state, so there's always an issue when it comes to having a government building display a nativity scene, for example, just as there would be if public schools adorned their walls with crucifixes or required prayer.

The situation you refer to in Boston, though, reinforces my point. It was the "Christmas" people getting angry that the more inclusive word "holiday" was used, not the "holiday" people trying to delete the word "Christmas." If the essence of PC-ness is trying to control people's language based on your own preferences and sensitivities, then the PC police here were not the happy holiday people but the Merry Christmas people. No one would say this, however, because the pejorative "PC" is somehow reserved for liberals. When conservatives try to force their views into the mainstream it is never a cause for concern, it seems.

But even if I conceded the "happy holidays" issue, I wonder why this would be considered such a tragically horrible thing, and I question the hyperbole involved in calling it a war on Christmas rather than a war on anyone who may not celebrate Christmas but nonetheless enjoys the festive holiday spirit that ushers in the winter months.

Much more concerning in the US is the invocation of "political correctness" to rebut and silence those who do not think it's a good idea to seal our borders to non-Christians, to allow gender discrimination, to suspend constitutional rights for Muslims, to discriminate against gay people, to make fun of people with disabilities, etc. Believe me when I tell you that the Republicans candidates who continually assure us that the problem with America is too much political correctness are not focusing on the Merry Christmas issue.

Bob, I may differ with you on some of the points you raise, but I whole-heartedly concur with your last paragraph.

Here are some other examples of Political Correctness Gone Mad.

There's the ludicrous re-naming of one of our favourite puddings as ''Spotted Richard'' - many people won't say Spotted Dick any more because dick is slang for a penis. Never mind that Dick is a perfectly acceptable diminutive for the name Richard, but Dick originally just meant ''pudding'', so it was a spotted pudding because of the dried fruit in it.

People have been censured for using the word ''niggardly'' because it sounds like the ''N'' word, though it simply means... well, mean/stingy. That's more a case of gross ignorance than political incorrectness. (But strangely, no one seems to object to the word 'snigger', do they?)

The use of ''Chair'' drives me nuts. I am Chairman of my town's U3A (University of the Third Age). The term Chairman is not gender specific. I don't like being called the Chair, much less Chairwoman - and as for Chairperson... puh-lease!!!

You can't say ''blackboard'' any more; it has to be called a chalk board - though you can have a whiteboard without any problems.

Basically, PC Gone Mad has made many people avoid using phrases which contain ''man'' or ''black'', so instead of asking for a black coffee I'm supposed to ask for a coffee without milk, lest I offend anyone. A ''manhole'' in the road is now a utility hole.

These are the kind of things I meant, Roger, but there are loads more examples. Being offended (especially on someone else's behalf) has become some people's raison d'étre - no offence to the French intended!

Jayne

Jayne, I agree with you that people are sometimes offended by silly things. But that's not the sort of political correctness that is a political issue in the presidential campaign. No one is really arguing over whether the word "niggardly" is okay. These sorts of examples are pulled out to denigrate (sorry) the idea of political correctness in order to suggest that it's also merely political correctness to want to fight discrimination or champion diversity in culture, race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. When "political correctness" is used as a pejorative term to refer to people who oppose shutting down mosques, it's usually a substitute for actual argument. People who cannot defend their cruel or hateful positions often just say, "I hate political correctness," a great applause line among Republicans but not a real argument. It's a term that, at least in the US, has become an integral part of the vocabulary of demagogues. And it's a rhetorical device to mask hate speech. Perhaps it's not like that where you live, but that's what it's like in the US. Merely consider the fact that several of the leading Republican candidates, including Donald Trump most conspicuously, constantly deride "political correctness," but none of the Democrats do.

Some of the examples you gave are unfamiliar to me, by the way. I've never heard anyone here object to blackboard if the board is black. As far as Spotted Dick is concerned (tee hee!), Dick Cheney never called himself Richard and I don't recall any liberals objecting to the connotation. I don't think "Chair" is a question of PC, though. At any rate, this is not the political correctness that the Republicans are running on. It's a much uglier thing in the campaign.

Donald Trump often says things like this, which is a quote: "I think the big problem this country has is being politically correct. I’ve been challenged by so many people and I don’t, frankly, have time for total political correctness. And to be honest with you, this country doesn’t have time, either."

If political correctness were merely the silly insistence on not using words like "blackboard" or "spotted dick," I doubt that Trump would stand up and say that it is "the big problem this country has." And I doubt that he would have so many followers cheering him on, as if all their anger and attempts to "take back the country" were just an effort to let people use the word "niggardly" in its traditional sense.

No, as you can see, I wasn't referring to the type of political correctness you are talking about, Bob. The whole presidential campaign thing is another matter altogether, and I'm in agreement with you over the worst elements of it.

But, believe me, this "Chair'' nonsense is a PC matter over here. ''Chairman'' is seen, by some, to be discriminatory towards women, when it is not. The Chambers Dictionary says: chairman - a person (male or female) who takes the chair or presides at an assembly or meeting. There's nothing either derogatory or discriminatory in the word as far as I'm concerned, yet it constantly leads to heated arguments among women (and men) who think there is.

Jayne

Personally, I prefer gender-neutral terms because they are shorter and more efficient...but I really don't care whether people call me "Chair" or "Chairman" or "Chairwoman," so long as I'm still the boss. :)

Gotta say, though, Jayne, I am deeply suspicious of the idea that referring to either blackboards or black coffee is EVER considered racist by ANYONE. Both sound like deliberately ridiculous and purely hypothetical examples of "Political Correctness--where will it end?"

At most, these might--MIGHT--be things that a few overanxious white people, whose primary goal in life is to Avoid Looking Bad, worry about, but I highly doubt that it is a real concern to actual ethnic minorities, who tend to have far, far more important things to get agitated about. ("Choose your battles" and all that.)

I mainly hear the pejorative "PC" rolled out by the sorts of privileged people who used to enjoy telling jokes that pissed on the underprivileged. Now they resent having to watch their language even when among other privileged people, lest someone call their contemptuous comments racist or homophobic or snobbish or whatever.

(Of course, none of them are ACTUALLY racists or homophobes or snobs--they're just convinced of their inherent superiority, which happens to be aligned with their race and sexual orientation and class PURELY BY ACCIDENT.)

Precisely because they are privileged, the horror of being "mistakenly" thought a racist or homophobe or snob is among the worst things that ever happens to them. And therefore such social disapprobation--a.k.a. Political Correctness--is one of the Major Ills of Modern Society, about which Something Must Be Done.

Actual racism and homophobia and poverty can take a back burner until these folks' God-given* right to piss on the underprivileged is restored.



* God having seen fit to make them privileged in the first place. Cf. verse 3 of Mrs. Cecil Alexander's lovely hymn, "All Things Bright and Beautiful":

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them high and lowly,
And ordered their estate.

We nasty godless liberals are forever trying to upend the social order that God Himself ordained. We're all bound for hell, I'm sure, for not realizing that "Love thy neighbor" is only supposed to refer to the guy in the next castle. But I digress.

First Time in the Country; My First Impressions
 

I think, Julie and Roger, that you must allow Jayne to say what is so over here. After all, she knows and you don't. She would not pronounce on what happens in the USA.

I assure you, liberals over here agonize like anything over the word black.

Actually I think most liberals over here are a bit too busy agonising over what is happening to the NHS to give the matter much thought.

What is happening to the NHS, Mary? I must have missed it.

In the short time since I returned to England after a decade away, I've been invited, twice, by the NHS to participate in medicals. I'm impressed by this level of proactivity. And as I'm writing, I'm listening to a certain Mr B. Sanders bemoaning how the US spends far more than we do on health, and for an inferior system.

I watched an Aljazeera documentary on the UK health service recently. I learned a lot about the nuts and bolts of providing free health care, and if I didn't before, now believe our doctors deserve great respect.
This is not the case in countries where Big Pharma makes the rules. And rakes in all the profits to the detriment of national health.
Long live the NHS.

Since you are just resampling the NHS in England, Alan, you might find my reply to John's query to Mary on this matter interesting. It is part of my latest post on the "Country music" thread.

Yes, Nigel, I read it. I base my judgement on treatment received, though. A condition I had was diagnosed and treated in 10 minutes here. Elsewhere, I was prescribed hugely expensive and ineffective medication.
But I realise for some the NHS is not satisfactory in whatever guise.

The problem with the NHS is that it's going broke. My own hospital (Addenbrooke's) is in the red to the tune of 1.2 million pounds a week. They're talking about sacking nurses now.

I also have had excellent treatment, Alan, and the standards of care are outstanding in most medical areas.

However, the problems in NHS England are now, including the financial nonsense of hospitals like Mary's at Addenbrokes, not so much systemic in the normal sense but actually, and deliberately, designed in by the so-called marketising 'reforms' and restructuring, especially that flowing from the Tories' Health and Social Care Act of 2012. That act simply killed the NHS in England in the original sense. The only road now, short of a major political reversal (of which in England there are still, even within Corbyn's ranks, no signs) is a steady and rapidly increasing slide into privatisation.

I have to say that when I left the UK in 2005 under a 'labour' government, the NHS was going broke.
As far as I remember, it was always in crisis, and likely always will be without radical changes in the way it is funded. I also remember debates about making people with self-inflicted illnesses (smokers / addicts / over-eaters / and those with avoidable injuries etc) pay for their treatment. I guess this was a step too radical for risk-averse politicians.
How did this thread get ambushed?

Someone mentioned Political Correctness, which led to a discussion of liberals and their concerns, real and imaginary. :)

Oh ... it's me.:o
Well, I know better now. ;)

Perhaps we should pay up front for care as they do in France and Germany, whose health services are much better than ours. Then you get some of it back, depending on your resources.

First Time in the Country: My First Impressions
 

Chemical fountains in the San Joaquin
sea-level valley ripen fields of citrus,
no sight of people, only where they've been,
Summer year round, sun fevered like a virus.
Groves only orange-rancher’s daughters crop
repeat for miles. In desert lacking rain
lies teeming fruit in silos for the shop,
drab process plants put beef in cellophane.
Driving through here, it seems the world outspreads
before you: orchards harvest apricots
or limes, fields grapes or grains in packing sheds.
Oil derricks drill bemired, near feeding lots.

k

I was about to ask if there was likely to be some more, actual and relevant verse on this thread any time soon -- or at all.

Thank you, Erik, for coming to the rescue!

Quite right, Martin. This might be worth a punt. It is obvious it is my first time in France. For a start the French are not in the least romantic. And the wonderful cuisine is a thing of the past too.

Across La Manche, sud-ouest de Thanet,
The finest country on the planet,
(Not counting here of course), la France,
Compound de cuisine et romance,

La France, le plus beau pays du monde,
Une nation witty yet profonde.
Tous les enfants can quote Descartes
Which shows how ils sont toujours smart.

Très cultivés, leurs films et plays
Deserving of the highest praise,
Likewise leurs romans need no boost,
Stendhal, Balzac, Flaubert, Proust,

Les jolies femmes, quel sex-appeal!
Les hommes, quel confidence et style!
Ils even jouent le criquet, yes!
Although (hélas!) sans much success.