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Obviously, that should be "pail" in the last line quoted above.
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Gail,
Heroic typing but I think the last word should be "pail"? As in bucket. An ulster is a type of raincoat. Presumable "ulsteret" was similar. Janet Gail, Heroic typing but I think the last word should be "pail"? As in bucket. An ulster is a type of raincoat. Presumable "ulsteret" was similar. Janet Whoops. Cross-posted. Did they sing the word "pain"? [This message has been edited by Janet Kenny (edited February 25, 2006).] |
I'm utterly amazed no one has has mentioned the classic teaser:
Janet and Michael sitting in a tree K-I-S-S-I-N-G! First somes love, then comes marriage then comes Michael with a baby carriage. Even as kids, we knew who ended up in charge. |
I learned "catch a bunny by the toe", then heard "piggy" later. I'd been an adult many years before I heard the n-word version.
I learned "A my name is Alice" as one of the rhymes to predict your future husband's name: A my name is Alice, My husband's name is Andrew, We live in Alabama, and we sell apples Your future was prognosticated by which verse you messed up on. I still sing this one sometimes: Three little angels, all dressed in white Tried to get to heaven on the end of a kite But the kite string broke and down they all fell Instead of going to heaven, they all went to Two little angels, all dressed in white Tried to get to heaven on the end of a kite But the kite string broke and down they all fell Instead of going to heaven, they all went to One little angel, all dressed in white Tried to get to heaven on the end of a kite But the kite string broke and down they all fell Instead of going to heaven, they all went to Three little devils, all dressed in red Tried to get to heaven on the end of a thread But the thread string broke, and down they all fell Instead of going to heaven, they all went to Two little devils, all dressed in red Tried to get to heaven on the end of a thread But the thread string broke, and down they all fell Instead of going to heaven, they all went to One little devil, all dressed in red Tried to get to heaven on the end of a thread But the thread string broke, and down they all fell Instead of going to heaven, they all went to Don't get excited, don't lose your head: Instead of going to heaven, they all went to BED! And then there's this one: I'm being swallowed by a boa constrictor, a boa constrictor, a boa constrictor. I'm being swallowed by a boa constrictor, Lord have mercy on me. Oh no - he's up to my toe Oh gee - he's up to my knee Oh my - he's up to my thigh Oh fiddle - he's up to my middle Oh heck - he's up to my neck Oh dread - he's up to my *gulp* http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/biggrin.gif |
VG
I've heard variations on the boa constrictor, but the kite one's new to me. Liked the ending *grin* |
Recited on the playground when someone said something original that rhymed:
You're a poet and you don't know it. But your feet show it ... Longfellows! Mary |
A poet who don't know it,
has a nose and don't blow it... |
When my daughter was born for about a year she had colic and had to be rocked to sleep each night in the rocking chair. I would sing An Irish Lullaby and a nursery rhyme to her to help her go to sleep:
An Irish Lullaby Chorus: Too-ra-loo-ra-loo-ral, Too-ra-loo-ra-li, Too-ra-loo-ra-loo-ral, hush now, don't you cry! Too-ra-loo-ra-loo-ral, Too-ra-loo-ra-li, Too-ra-loo-ra-loo-ral, that's an Irish lullaby. Mother Goose nursery rhymes Rock-a-Bye Baby: Rock-a-bye Baby, in the tree top, When the wind blows, the cradle will rock. When the bough breaks, the cradle will fall, And down will come baby, cradle and all. The first time I sang “Rock-a-Bye Baby” I was horrified when I realized what the words actually said so I changed it to: Rock-a-bye Baby, in the tree top, When the wind blows, the cradle will rock. When the bough breaks, the cradle won’t fall, Cause Daddy chained it up there with chains. |
Great thread,
Clawson was right to call our attention to the work of Iona Opie and her late husband Peter. Their Oxford dictionaries of nursery rhymes and especially their Lore and Language of Schoolchildren belong in the reference libraries of all serious poets. Pace David Anthony, the aforementioned scholars doubted the Great Plague provenance for "Ring-a-ring o' roses". They can't resist reminding us, however, of the old belief that lucky children could cough or laugh roses. An example of this rhyme put to profound use is in the final scene of Alban Berg's great opera Wozzek (Janet Kenny, support me on this!). A circle of children, including Wozzek's and Marie's son, plays at this game. The audience knows the boy is newly orphaned by murder and a sort of suicide-by-madness. The rhyme's musical setting seems to underscore the odd mixture of innocence, allegiance-building and bloody cruelty common to many such rhymes. When the circle breaks and the boy walks up-and-offstage to discover his dead mother, the effect in the theatre is shattering. To give credit where it is due, the use of the game appears in Berg's source material, Georg Buchner's equally great play Woyzek. My name Michael Slipp (how can I get this changed?) |
Michael,
I love the opera and the play. The child's electronic game song "op op--op op" are among theatre's most chilling moments. Not actually electronic but the bird-like sounds and the repetitive movements are pitiless in their pathos. It's many years since I thought about this. I do remember a game. The play and opera should be a warning against allowing the educated classes to use less powerful people for dietary experiments--or any others. Great to be reminded of it. As soon as possible after my household goods join me in my new location I'll play the record to bring it back. Janet PS: My first live performance of Wozzek starred a heavily pregnant Marilyn Horne as Marie. Unforgettable. I had mixed feelings about Geraint Evans (Wozzek) but he had his moments. Janet [This message has been edited by Janet Kenny (edited March 04, 2006).] |
To return from the sublime to the ridiculous for a moment, we used to sing:
It's raining, it's pouring The old man is snoring He went to bed with a hole in his head And he didn't get up in the morning which made no sense. Many of these seem to have been improved, though, by aural misunderstanding. There's a collector of misunderstood lyrics whose site is fun: http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/car...degreens.shtml |
I remember this one:
I one a horse I two a horse I three .... etc etc until the child who was OUT was the one who got to say: I eight (ate) a horse... |
Meredith, I learned a more sensible version as a child:
It's raining, it's pouring, the old man is snoring: Bumped his head when he went to bed and he didn't get up in the morning Obviously, the man had a concussion... http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/wink.gif |
Here's 1 I remember skipping rope to:
Fudge, Fudge, Call the Judge Momma's got a brand-new baby It's not a boy It's not a girl It's just a plain ol' baby! Wrap it up in tissue-paper, Send it down the elevator, Third floor, Stop! Second floor, Stop! First Floor and out the door!! Catherine [This message has been edited by C. Chandler-Oliveira (edited March 08, 2006).] |
Rhymes for "choosing up sides":
One potato, two potato, three potato, four five potato, six potato, seven potato, more. [So the eighth person was always counted out. The last person in was "it." Oh, the relief we felt not to be IT! And while this counting rhyme went on, everyone's hands had to be placed in front of you in a cylinder as if grabbing a vertical pole; one hand goes behind your back when it's marked out, until the next one is marked out and then you're out.] An infants' and toddlers' hand game: Round bally, round bally, Pull Jilly's (any name there) hair! One slice, two slice, Tickle under there! (In the above, the first line requires making simultaneous circles in the child's palm; the second, a slight tug on her hair; the third, a pretense of making slices in her forearm; and the fourth, tickling her under the arm.) Pretty vicious, but the youngest ones don't seem to notice; they're too busy giggling. I think we picked that one up in Utah. "A my name is Alice" was slightly different in Brooklyn (it should be mentioned most syllables were shouted out while singing): A my name is Alice, and my husband's name is Al! We come from Alabama to bring you apricots! |
[EDITED to group the innocent chants at the beginning, and the offensive ones at the end. An essay explaining why I chose to include the offensive ones appears a few posts down in this thread. Original post, re-organized:]
I'm late to the party, as usual, but I can't believe that no one's mentioned these yet: The thumb wrestling rhyme: One, two, three, four, I declare a thumb war. Five, six, seven, eight, Try to keep your thumb straight. Never-ending scripts: "Pete and Repeat were sitting on a fence. Pete fell off. Who was left?" "Repeat!" [Somewhat exasperated] "Pete and Repeat were sitting on a fence..." etc. "I know a man." "What man?" "The man with the power." "What power?" "The power of hoodoo." "Who do?" "I do!" "Do what?" "Know a man." "What man?" etc. "That's life!" "What's Life?" "A magazine." "How much does it cost?" "Ten cents." "I only have a nickel." "Well, that's life." "What's Life?" etc. Counting rhymes: Engine, Engine Number Nine, Goin' down Chicago Line. If the train should jump the track, Do you want your money back? Y-E-S spells YES and you are not IT! (or) N-O spells NO and you are not IT! Bubble gum, bubble gum, in a dish. How many pieces do you wish? 1,2,3...and you are not IT! Inka, binka, bottle of inka, Cork fell out and YOU STINKA! (Meaning, you're IT.) Favorite hand-clapping rhymes: Lemonade. (clap clap clap) Crunchy ice. (clap clap clap) Sip it once. (clap clap clap) Sip it twice. (clap clap clap) Lemonade, Crunchy ice. Sip it once, Sip it twice, Turn around, Touch the ground, FREEZE! Down by the banks of the Hanky Panky Where the bullfrogs jump from bank to banky With an EEP! OPP! RIBBIT! FLOP! Watchin' the bullfrogs go ker-plop! [There were many variations on the third verse.] ================================================= OFFENSIVE RHYMES Sung to "A-Hunting We Will Go" My father is a German, My mother is a spy, And I'm the little blabbermouth Who told the F.B.I. My father is a butcher, My mother cuts the meat, And I'm the little hot dog Who runs around the street. There were many, many verses on this theme--I'm sure some of you know more of them. Staring contest chants, in order of ascending cultural insensitivity: THIS! Is a VER-y! SER-i-ous! GAME! [Chant faster and faster, in ascending pitch, while staring into each other's eyes, until someone breaks eye contact or smiles.] My name is Owl-Eye, Owl-Eye, Chicken-Eye, Chicken-Eye, Pom-Pom Beauty, Don't Like Whiskey, Chinese, Japanese, Indian CHIEF! [At "chief", each kid crosses arms in front of his chest and stares into his opponent's eyes. First kid to blink, look away, twitch, or laugh is the loser.] My mother's Chinese. [Each contestant pulls outside corners of own eyelids down.] My father's Japanese. [Outside corners of eyelids pulled up.] I'm Chin-apanese. [Each contestant pulls one eyelid up and one eyelid down, and staring contest begins--same rules as above.] The latter rhyme lost all its luster for me when my schoolmates started using it (and the last quatrain of "Not last night but the night before," provided below) to taunt my best friend, Tamiko Kobayashi. Political incorrectness does have nasty consequences! The jump-rope rhyme of choice: Not last night, but the night before, Twenty-four robbers came knockin' at my door. As I ran out, [turners keep turning rope as jumper runs out] They ran in. [jumper runs back in and continues jumping] Hit me o'er the head with a rolling pin! I asked them what they wanted, and this is what they said: Chinese dancers turn around, [jumper turns around] Chinese dancers touch the ground, [jumper touches ground] Chinese dancers do the splits, [jumper does straddle kick] Chinese dancers GET OUT OF HERE, QUICK! [jumper runs out] The fact that my friend Tamiko wasn't Chinese was lost on the bullies, who would chant the final four lines while they turned her around, threw her to the ground, etc., while I ran like hell for an adult authority figure. Adult authority figures move slowly, though, and they never made it back to the scene of the crime in time to catch anyone in the act. Although I was happy to identify the perpetrators, no one was ever disciplined because "you kids need to work these things out yourselves." The bullies also had the following equal-opportunity nasties at their disposal for tattlers like me. Songs of insult and humiliation: Look up. Look down. Look round and round. See my thumb? Gee, you're dumb. The following taunt was chanted not only in cases of accidental underwear exposure, but also when a wedgie had been administered. For the uninitiated, a wedgie is an upward yank on the back of someone's underwear, so hard as to wedge the garment in the victim's butt crack. I see London! I see France! I see someone's underpants! [or] Teacher, teacher, I declare! I see someone's underwear! [followed by the appropriate couplet for the color of the witnessed garment] It might be blue, it might be white! It might be full of dynamite! It might be pink, it might be blue! It might be full of doggie doo! It might be white, it might be pink! It might stink! Your underwear's on fire! [Cue vicious wedgie] Now it's out. [Sung to some vaguely Middle Eastern tune] There's a place in France Where the ladies wear no pants, But the men don't care, As they show their underwear. [Cue vicious wedgie] =========================== All right, I've been typing as fast as I can for two hours now, but it's time to stop. I warn you, I've got much more of this nonsense rattling around in my head. Golly, the camp song parodies alone...okay, one more: "My Bonny Lies Over the Ocean" My bonny has tuberculosis. My bonny has only one lung. My bonny can cough up raw oysters And roll them around on her tongue. Dentyne, oh Dentine, oh where do you get your coloring? Dentyne, oh Dentine, oh where do you get your color? Julie Stoner [This message has been edited by Julie Stoner (edited March 29, 2006).] |
Julie,
One consequence of having behaved badly when young might be to consider from then on the price of future behavior. This thread is a nice memory romp; not much poetic sensibility here, but every discussion need not have it. Is it worth joining in the fun to once again not be aware that not everyone finds stupid racism to be acceptable? Political incorrectness is a lying use of language -- a use that people who are concerned with language and how it can be used to distort might challenge; a more accurate description of your rhymes might be hateful. You post is not the first on this thread that has moved me to reply and I mean this for the others, too. The child you were behaved self-centeredly and unthinkingly; he or she isn't my concern. Where is the adult who can acknowledge now that once again you haven't considered how others might feel, not about how PC you are, but about being treated as invisible or about seeing others treated that way? A wagging finger at your younger self doesn't show any real understanding. There are ways to discuss the nasty rhymes, but I've yet to see them here. Marcia Karp |
I hope my previous post is appearing for some of you, because despite reloading the page several times I can't see it. Anyway, I woke up with a few more items lodged in my head.
Never-ending script: [First, kids assign each other numbers based on ages.] "NUM--BER-- ONE stole the cookie from the cookie jar." "Who, me?" "Yes, you!" "Couldn't be!" "Then who?" "NUM--BER-- TWO [or another number] stole the cookie from the cookie jar." etc. Hand-clap chant: [If two players, they stand across from each other; if more than two, they form a circle. Each "double" is a clap. Each "this" is a patty-cake slap against neighboring players palms. Each "that" is a slap of the backs of the hands against neighboring players' palms.] Double, double, THIS! THIS! Double, double, THAT! THAT! Double, THIS! Double, THAT! Double, double, THIS! THAT! [It gets faster each time until someone messes up.] Julie Stoner |
I also knew the "nigger" rhyme mentioned earlier as "tiger" and was absolutely scandalized to read the racist version. But I started school in 1969 in freshly-integrated New Orleans.
There, both black and white girls together (for the only enforced segregation was by gender) played clapping games set to rhyme, such as: My mama told me If I was goody That she would buy me A rubber dolly My auntie told her I kissed a soldier Now she won't buy me A rubber dolly Ohhhhh... 3,6,9, The goose drank wine, The monkey chewed tobacco on the streetcar line But the line broke The monkey got choked And they all went to heaven on a little rowboat Clap, clap! The kids began to self-segregate by race about third grade, to the dismay and curiosity of the parents. It must have been something we picked up on from the scary principal, who called white kids "son" and black kids "boy," and the bitch secretary who left my black friend Angie sitting in her own pee on a paper bag in the office. My mom, the Brownie leader and PTA person, came in and found her, and took her home to change. Turned out Angie was diabetic. The old hag had always made sure I got to change out of my wet ones. Robin |
Quote:
Actually, "nasty" rhymes are the ones about excrement and possibly sex. For example, one I learned on the playground, from the little girls: MILK MILK LEMONADE Round the corner FUDGE is made. This is done accompanied by pointing at one breast, then the other, then the urinary tract, then the anus. I gleefully showed this to my mom when I got home, and while she was appropriately scandalized, she was mostly shocked that when she was a girl in Germany, she'd learned: MILCH MILCH LIMONADE und der CHOCOLADE My guess then (and still) was that the rhyme had started with a German source, since it rhymes better. Those are NASTY rhymes. Racist rhymes might characterized as "hateful," but hate is a rather strong word, especially since it's very hard to actively hate something you don't understand. But it's very easy to be mean. Trouble is, being mean is one of the underpinnings of comedy, being able to laugh at someone else's pain. You can do the schoolmarmish "That's not funny" line, but as for lying uses of language, that's another one, because if people are laughing, that's the earmark of something being funny and all the pursed lips and disapproving stares in the world are not going to stop the giggles. People make fun of people because it's fun to be mean. Whether it's socially acceptable is a matter of context, both of who's hearing it and how mean you're being. The general dividing line between "stupid racism" (your term) and socially acceptable race-based jokes is a matter of context. In current day PC-land, you're allowed to make fun of your own group and any group who historically persecuted your group. Related to that are the jokes making fun of stupid people, ignorant people, and people with unfashionable accents which is cousin to more socially-acceptable terms of denigration such as calling racism "stupid." Of course, making jokes about stupid ignorant hicks is crass if done by college-educated citified intelligentsia, but Jeff Foxworthy can make a career out of Blue Collar TV. Saying "This is so polically incorrect" *GIGGLE* isn't so much a lie as it is a verbal clown suit or jester's hat, a signal that the speaker isn't speaking as himself but in persona as the clown or fool, the character all societies devise some version of to allow them to say things that would ordinarily not be spoken in polite society (but everyone is thinking) and likewise to be able make fun of SOMEONE without a purse-lipped schoolmarm coming in and saying, "How dare you be so insensitive to CLOWNS! Don't you know CLOWNS are people too? Imagine trying to escape Clownistan with your whole extended family packed into a Mini-Cooper!" Something nobody has touched on other than to say, "We used to say THIS, now we say THIS" is the fact that the bunnies, monkeys, tigers, angels, devils, clowns, jesters and assorted race-unspecified children are all interchangeable with any racial word which fits the metrical scheme. I think, as mature adults, we should be able to report which particular racially insensitive variant we learned as children, and what currently socially acceptable variant we've passed it on as. |
Quote:
http://www.luckymojo.com/auntsallys.html Here's a relevant quote: <cite>Still, there are some parts of the song that are fairly obvious: in the third verse Blake says he was a fool to bet on 3, 6, and 9, the "dirty gig." According to "Aunt Sally's," 3 is "anything filthy" and also "diarrhoea," 3 and 6 in combination are "any dirty filth," and 3 and 9 in combination are "brimstone" (sulphur), a common ingredient, along with "filth" such as feces and urine, in hoodoo spells for crossing and jinxing an enemy. Taken as a three-number gig, 3, 6, 9 indicates excrement -- and humourously implies that Blake thinks it was wrong to bet on dirty symbolism. The famously "filthy" 3, 6, 9 gig appears in a number of other songs about policy, most notably "Policy Blues (You Can't 3-6-9 Me)" by Albert Clemens (Adam Wilcox), recorded on April 2nd, 1935 (Bluebird B-5930) and "Policy Wheel Blues" by James Kokomo Arnold, recorded on January 15, 1935 (Decca 7147).</cite> Still, there are some parts of the song that are fairly obvious: in the third verse Blake says he was a fool to bet on 3, 6, and 9, the "dirty gig." According to "Aunt Sally's," 3 is "anything filthy" and also "diarrhoea," 3 and 6 in combination are "any dirty filth," and 3 and 9 in combination are "brimstone" (sulphur), a common ingredient, along with "filth" such as feces and urine, in hoodoo spells for crossing and jinxing an enemy. Taken as a three-number gig, 3, 6, 9 indicates excrement -- and humourously implies that Blake thinks it was wrong to bet on dirty symbolism. The famously "filthy" 3, 6, 9 gig appears in a number of other songs about policy, most notably "Policy Blues (You Can't 3-6-9 Me)" by Albert Clemens (Adam Wilcox), recorded on April 2nd, 1935 (Bluebird B-5930) and "Policy Wheel Blues" by James Kokomo Arnold, recorded on January 15, 1935 (Decca 7147).</cite> |
Yes, Marcia, many of the verses I included are, indeed, nothing short of hateful. I certainly would not mention them to my own kids while they are at the age when they might revive these deservedly dormant "rhymes of insult and humiliation" by repeating them. Some antiques shouldn't be passed on to younger generations.
So why on earth did I pass them on to Eratosphere? My purpose in posting them here was not to preserve such filth for posterity, but to see if others had a glimmer of recognition--"Oh, yeah, we used to say that one, too--how horrifying in retrospect." (I assume that members of this list will not be tempted to start--or resume--giving people wedgies at this late date; or to teach their kids this kind of hatemongering.) I said above that some antiques shouldn't be passed on to younger generations. I do plan to discuss some of these rhymes with my kids when they are old enough to learn about the Chinese Exclusion Acts, the internment of American citizens of Japanese ancestry, and the laws which would have made it impossible for me to marry their Chinese-American father in California only a few decades ago. The all-purpose rhymes of insult and humiliation are not too distant from the ethnic ones, though; they are all pathetic attempts at self-empowerment by insecure people. They're all shorthand for the same message: "Circumstances or my own shortcomings keep me from the degree of success to which I feel entitled, but I needn't feel inferior if I can demonstrate that someone else is less worthy than I am." Granted, that's not as catchy as "See my thumb? Gee, you're dumb," but it's one explanation for how so many people could have found Hitler's scapegoating so appealing. He tapped into the powerful urge to feel superior by tearing others down. I do not wish to believe that such a negative urge is universal, but it certainly permeated the childhood culture of many of us. If we are to change that culture for future generations, we need to recognize what is innocent nonsense and what is ugliness in nursery-rhymes' clothing. I am truly sorry that I did not provide more context for the more hurtful chants and rhymes I shared. My intent wasn't to giggle over what a naughty little "politically incorrect" rascal I was, but to show that, as I said in my original post, political incorrectness does have very real and very nasty consequences. I will attempt to remedy that lack of context in my original posting. Thank you for having the courage to speak out against hate-mongering when and where you see it. Julie Stoner |
Kevin: Thanks for the 3,6,9 info! It was my experience that it was the black kids who brought these rhyming and clapping games to the playground, along with Double Dutch and speed jumproping, which was all new to the white kids.
Then there were the ones we made up. One was a cruel taunt made to make fun of a humpbacked substitute teacher (kind of a parody of Miss Mary Mack): Mr. Moore, Moore, He is a whore, whore, We kicked his ass, ass Right out the class, class We made him cry, cry He said goodbye, bye And he didn't come back, back, Til the Fourth of July, ly! Another was entirely written by my quiet friend, Vincent. Mr. Harris was the janitor: 6 o'clock in the mornin' Mr. Harris walkin'around Silly coffee and Santa Claus Bread that weight 3000 pounds Coffee black as tar Cornbread hard as your shoe That's the way they feed you In elementry school I can still see his pencilled manuscript in my mind. I wonder what ever happened to Vince. Robin P.S. OOO, OOO! fivefootone! I DO remember that chant!!!!! You remember "Miss Mary Mack?" http://www.nwlg.org/pages/resources/...und_rhyme2.htm P.P.S. For jumping rope, remember this one? Cinderella Dressed in yella Went upstairs To kiss a fella Made a mistake And kissed a snake How many doctors Did it take? 1,2,3,4,5,6..........with the rope going faster and faster till you messed up P.P.P.S. Oh, and this one! Say, say, say, playmate come out and play with me and bring your dollies three, climb up my apple tree, slide down my rainbarrel right out my cellar door and we'll be jolly friends forever more. No, no, no playmate, I cannot play with you my dollies have the flu, boo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo, ain't got no rain barrel, ain't got no cellar door, but we'll be jolly friends forever more. [This message has been edited by Robin-Kemp (edited March 29, 2006).] |
Here's another skipper:
Dip, dip, dip My blue ship Sailing on the water Like a cup and saucer Dip, dip, dip and another: Wallflowers, wallflowers, growing up so high We're all little children, we're all going to die Except C... D...., she's the only one Turn your face! turn your face! turn your face to the wall again. |
We said "tiger." Oh, and instead of "Chinese dancers turn around" it was "Teddy bear, teddy bear, turn around" - which I think sounds better anyway. And our Miss Mary Mack had buttons instead of buckles. But Miss Lucy was just the same.
The words to this one varied depending on whether any adults were around: Lincoln, Lincoln, I been thinkin', what the heck have you been drinkin', is it whiskey, is it wine, oh my gosh it's turpentine! Gail, here's a variation on yours, used for taunting rather than counting: Mary and Johnny, sittin' in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G First comes love, then comes marriage then Johnny Jr. in a baby carriage suckin' his thumb, wettin' his pants doin' the hula-hula dance! There was one about a "Chinaman" sitting on a fence, "tryinna make a dollar outta ninety-nine cents." I can't remember all the words, but something tells me that's just as well! Here's what you'd sing to a crybaby: Baby, baby, stick your head in gravy, wash it off with bubblegum, and go join the navy! You know, like when you'd all just thrown a bunch of rocks at the fat kid and made him cry. Ahhh. Good times... [This message has been edited by Rose Kelleher (edited April 30, 2006).] |
I'll just point out for anyone who hasn't read page one of this thread that Julie was far from the first person to post "offensive" rhymes. I'm just sorry she felt the need to go back and re-order her thread, post a disclaimer etc. Are we censoring our own experiences now???
And as to our own children, let's trust them: we used to say these rhymes and we KNEW they were figurative. You can't censor children's exploration of the world; you can only hope to guide their conclusions and even that not indefinitely. Kevin, we used to do milk milk lemonade. (Well, I didn't so much, I thought it was gross & a bit juvenile. But everyone else did.) Is it NASTY? I think most kids were pretty comfortable with it. (Bearing in mind the time when my cousin Paul led an expedition across the roof of the pantry, which you could get onto via his window, and which led to the bathroom window, to look at my sister in the bathroom! I also didn't go along on that one, but a few of the others did. Cousins only, I should add; not neighbourhood kids!) It's also worth realising the extent to which these archaic rhymes (eg the nigger ones) helped us to make sense of the racism we could see around us: pace Robin's childhood observations, I can remember being mystified by racism when I discovered it - and horrified when I encountered racial hatred, which I did in the form of a school friend's parents (unfortunately I was on a trip with them at the time, so I was stuck. Strange holiday.) I can't imagine what would have happened to me at home if I had said the N-word; but then I was far too brooding a child. Maybe I do remember Paul saying it and getting spanked (well, there ya go!). Rose, we also used to say teddy bear teddy bear. I'm chagrined at the number of these things I hadn't remembered. Here's one I have: Engine Engine Number 9 Going down Chicago Line If the train falls off the track Will you give my money back O-U-T spells OUT and OUT go Y-O-U! KEB |
David, you're right about the plague being the inspiration for "Ring around the roses." That's the sores and, since the disease makes a horrible stench, the posies (or any other flower) in the pockets were like an early form of deodorant. Several other nursery rhymes and children's songs were politically inspired: "Humpty Dumpty" was a cannon on a wall in a city the Royalists were defending against Cromwell, "Georgie Porgie" was George IV who had a lot of love affairs, and the song "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" refers to "Bonnie Prince Charlie" Stuart in France.
I think Marcia is right in saying, "Political incorrectness is a lying use of language." The very term politically incorrect seems to be last bastion of incompetence in humor. Person X tries to make a joke that flops. Nobody is laughing. The joke also is racist or sexist. Person X says that the reason no one laughed is because they are all "politically correct" and the joke is really funny but the crowd has all these PC hang-ups, like common courtesy. Is having manners something to be ashamed of? Robert Meyer |
Who said anything was funny? Kevin mentions humour but not in relation to thse counting rhymes. Have you never laughed at a dodgy joke? Have you never thought an unworthy thought? Sorry - we're writers. Our job is to look at the world and record what we see, not what we wish we saw or what we'd prefer.
By all means say you see it and don't like it. Say you see that different races have differently-shaped eyes - it's true - but that observation alone doesn't have inherent meaning. I say this as a person who isn't racist, who has friends of all races and cultures. I'm the butt of anti-Americanism, to say nothing of sexism, on a daily basis. I would never tolerate a racist remark by one of my kids, and I know they would never think of making one - it just wouldn't make any sense. But I do think I'd let them report something. The only way to make cultural changes stick is by looking foursquare at what went before. KEB PS - By the way, it's also worth remembering that the left, when it goes far enough, becomes more like the right than anything else. Think about the people who try to dictate what other people can say. Taste is one thing; manners is one thing; but castigating someone in public for something they saw fit to talk about isn't manners. |
I've come to this one just lately.....forgive me if these are already posted and I've somehow missed these two.....I don't think they're here yet, but I somehow can't imagine that they've been forgotten.
This one involved two children facing one another and joining hands with a third child locked inside their arms. While singing the song the two holding childlren would swing their arms back and forth with the third enclosed and (if done correctly) getting a bad case of whiplash. "London Bridges falling down falling down falling down London Bridges falling down My fair lady. Take the keys and lock her up lock her up lock her up take the keys and lock her up My fair lady." Off to prison she must go she must go she must to off to prison she must go my fair lady." And my own personal favorite (said with voice dripping sarcasm) which is best done while, of course, jumping on the bed. 10 Little monkeys jumping on a bed, one jumped up and bumped his head, Mom called the Doctor and the doctor said ........"no more monkeys jumping on a bed." 9 Little monkeys jumping on a bed, one jumped up and bumped his head. Mom called the Doctor and the Doctor said ......."no more monkeys jumping on a bed." 8 Little monkeys jumping on a bed. One jumped up and bumped his head. Mom called the Doctor and the Doctor said ......"no more monkeys jumping on a bed." 7 Little monkeys jumping on a bed one jumped up and bumped his head Mom called the Doctor and the Doctor said ....."no more monkeys jumping on a bed." 6 Little monkeys jumping on a bed one jumped up and bumped his head. Mom called the Doctor and the Doctor said ....."no more monkeys jumping on a bed." 5 Little monkeys jumping on a bed one jumped up and bumped his head. Mom called the Doctor and the Doctor said ....."no more monkeys jumping on a bed." 4 Little monkeys jumping on a bed one jumped up and bumped his head. Mom called the Doctor and the Doctor said ....."no more monkeys jumping on a bed." 3 Little monkeys jumping on a bed one jumped up and bumped his head. Mom called the Doctor and the Doctor said ....."no more monkeys jumping on a bed." 2 Little monkeys jumping on a bed one jumped up and bumped his head. Mom called the Doctor and the Doctor said ....."no more monkeys jumping on a bed." 1 Little monkeys jumping on a bed one jumped up and bumped his head. Mom called the Doctor and the Doctor said ....."no more monkeys jumping on a bed." My chiildren seldom made it past "7 little monkeys" before one, two, or all three of them would end up bumping his own head - either on a ceiling fixture or the floor... One of 'em actually ended up breaking an arm. I was a terrible mother, wasn't I? sigh |
Dear Katy,
Since I was the one who raised the matter, I take it you are writing to me here, though I wonder what you know about my politics: Quote:
If leaving the important things behind--like speaking out against thoughtlessness--is required for participation in this forum, please add an item to the rules, so the next person who is tempted to speak up understands the prohibition. Marcia |
Marcia, no offense intended, and it wasn't just your comments I was addressing. Obviously thoughtlessness is the opposite of what we're aiming for here - and lively debate of issues is certainly one of the distinguishing characteristics of Eratosphere.
I guess you and I took different impressions from Julie's post. all best, KEB |
Dear Katy,
No offense taken. We've just proved the worth of more talk, not none, as the way to respond to talk we are perplexed or made angry by. Best, Marcia |
Kevin's story about the Milk, Milk, Lemonade, etc rhyme he reported to his mother reminded me of this story from my childhood.
My mother, a school teacher, met the principal of her school on the main street of our hometown. He said,"Your daughter, Mary, just taught my daughter, Faith, a new poem yesterday." "Oh, how nice!" said mother. "I teach her a lot of poetry. Which one was it?" He smiled & recited, "A woman and a man pissed in a can." Mary |
Frank and Brittany, sitting in a tree
K-I-S-S-I-N-G first came Hastings, then Magna Carta, but Joan broke them up by playing the marta. Robert Meyer [This message has been edited by Robert Meyer (edited April 04, 2006).] |
I don't think this was a "jumping" chant, I beleive it was a "clapping" song.
Ms Mary Mack Mack Mack all dressed in black black black with silver buttons buttons buttons all down her back back back. She jumped so high high high she reached the sky sky sky and she never came back back back til the fourth of July ly ly. I think the trick was to keep repeating it faster and faster until your hands couldn't keep up with your partner's. First one to mis-clap lost. I could be wrong. I never played. I'm hideously uncoordinated that way. Lo |
There was another racist AND dirty rhyme on the playground, alluded to earlier:
Chinese (pull eyes up) Japanese (pull eyes down) Dirty knees (touch knees) Look at these (pull out shirt at nipple level to make "breasts") "Siamese" (pull eyes sideways) was a variant. I think kids delight in this transgressive language--they relish the forbidden, they get that something they are saying or doing is naughty, and they laugh about it, usually without a genuine understanding of the hurt words can cause, unless one person experiences being the butt of the joke. A kid who subverts the Proper Adult World experiences the intoxication of breaking the rules and getting away with it. Kids also pick up racist/sexist/etc. attitudes from the behavior, words, and attitudes of the adults around them. They learn very qwuickly what (and who) gets adult approval and act accordingly. Robin |
Alicia
LOL - you just brought to mind a version we used to do, but rather than 'Lucy', the refrain was 'Bang, bang, Lulu'. Lulu had a motorbike the seat was made of glass every time she hit a bump a piece went up her Bang bang Lulu, Lulu bang bang Bang bang Lulu, Lulu bang bang Lulu had a chicken her boyfriend had a duck they put them on the table to see if they would... Lulu had two boyfriends both were very rich one was the son of a banker the other the son of a ... Good lord, A., I haven't thought of these since I was a kid! And I have a hard time remembering what I did yesterday *grin*. |
Marcia
I think a lot these examples you've objected to, and they should be objected to if used, demonstrates how far people can grow, and how they can overcome their parents' prejudices. I grew up believing, because I knew no better: A mouth harp was called a Jew's harp. A brazil nut was called a niggertoe. These are but two examples that come to mind. I used the terms because I believed that's what they were really called, until I got old enough. Imagine my embarrassment when I learned differently. I grew up in a white neighborhood. We knew no black people. 'Nigger,' for us kids, was a dirty word, like others, and we used it, in ignorance, in the privacy of our group, as an insult. It's how we were taught. We giggled at the Lulu rhymes I posted above, just as we giggled at parody songs such as: Daniel Boone was a man was a big man but the bear, it was bigger so he run like a nigger up a tree. Then I spent a summer catching a bus, going to a summer day camp at the YMCA in downtown Cincinnati. I was the minority kid, and I had to swim in a large pool, and was shocked to learn we didn't wear swimsuits. Talk about culture shock! That summer, I learned a lot about the kids who I had been insulting. They learned a lot about me, too. Racism can work both ways, and some of their 'truths' came under self-examination, also. I listened to an interview with Spike Lee, about an upcoming movie. During it, he mentioned actors he'd admired, and the discussion turned to some of those actors who'd done blackface, or portrayed black people in other stereotypical manners. He just shrugged his shoulders and said, It happened. We can't pretend it didn't. Basically, he said it's part of history, and things have changed. We shouldn't forget it. It shows how far we've come. I've actually taught diversity classes, and gotten a bit emotional while doing it, because I've seen kids turn to each other afterward, wanting to learn about their differences, because I told them it's our differences that make us interesting. I was pretty much ignoring the racial aspect of the discussion until you mentioned it, Marcia. But our past is a part of who we are. No one's saying these rhymes are correct, now or then, but discussing them has shown a common background, but also demonstrated that we can overcome our early teachings, learn to think for ourselves, and become better people. [This message has been edited by Jerry Glenn Hartwig (edited April 05, 2006).] |
I think Jerry has a very valid point. You have to concede the timing involved. The games we played, the songs we sang, the chants we chanted while jumping rope or clapping hands - they were part of an era - a totally different era than we live in today.
I'd hazard to say that most of us who grew up knowing these songs and games and chants also grew up with some exceedingly sexist attitudes as well. Little girls played with Tiny Tears Dolls and Barbies, and expected to be housewives, mothers, nurses or teachers.......little boys had GI Joes and grew up shooting one another with toy guns in their hands and cowboy hats on their heads. Just as we didn't teach our children to sing "niggertoe" rhymes or "Ching Chong Chinamen" chants, I'm pretty sure that none of us, as parents, gave our children the same dangerous toys or the same sexist attitudes that we grew up with. That's the thing....we can outgrow things, we can leave things behind, we can change our opinion of those things - but we can't deny they happened. And to be expected to apologize for something we did before we knew it was wrong just seems, well, wrong. We don't do it now and that's something to be proud of - knowing that we grew and changed and taught our own children different things than we were taught. |
Jerry,
Just for information, "jew's-harp" is the correct name for a musical instrument. It may have been changed in America to "mouth harp" for PC reasons, but it's still called a jew's-harp in England. Best wishes, David |
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