Ann, Welsh pronunciation scares the hell out of me, and I'm not easily scared. So I do the logical, I turn to David Anthony. Not many know that he is actually David Gwilym Anthony, named after no less than Dafydd ap Gwylym, who contests with Geoffrey Chaucer the bragging rights for best poet in Britain before Shakespeare. Of course for us Chaucer is mother's milk, and nobody born after Dylan Thomas and Burton can read Dafydd ap Gwylym. But break the suspense for me, damsel Ann. Surely Cwm rhymes with room, doom, and gloom. If not, I've been mispronouncing Hardy's The Oxen since boyhood!

Thanks for posting this beautiful poem, Tim, and for the scoop on the REAL David And, yes, absolutely, thank you for writing it, David!
Duncan, sorry not to have seen your thread. I am pretty new at this, and haven't yet been able to catch up yet on everything on the Sphere. As for Welsh rhymes... I was first dragged up Snowdon at the age of six, as I recall, and have been back many times. I think cwm rhymes doom and all that, but leave it to the Welsh speakers/knowers to give the final pronouncement.

Charlotte & Tim,

My mum was Welsh and she used to live in a street called 'The Cwm', which means 'valley'. It's pronounced more like 'cum', or the double 'o' in 'book', but definitely not like the longer double 'o' in room, doom and gloom!

Tim, I don't think you have been mispronouncing Hardy's Oxen.
English 'coomb' or 'combe' (from OE cumb) is pronounced, as a word on its own, with the vowel sound of too according to the COD and my own experience. However, it has the sound of the modern Welsh 'cwm' when in combination, such as nearby Babbacombe, Hollicombe, Widecombe (of Fair fame) and so on. Ultimately from post-Roman proto-Welsh 'cwm', but I don't know how that was pronounced.

Thanks, Jayne.
I'll be happy to sign it when next we meet, although I fear the rarity value will be thereby diminished.
I've ordered your book of rhyming verse. I had to get a second-hand one since Amazon are out of new stock.

Tim, thanks for posting my poem.

Best regards,
David

Oh heck, David, I'm really embarrassed about my old book of rhyming verse; I was a novice who's learned a lot since then.
A new (hopefully better) one is shortly becoming available.

Jayne, reverting to the 'mistier-Gloucestershire' pairing, the COD gives two pronunciations, 'sher' and 'sheer' for the 'shire' element of such county names. I've only ever (consciously) heard one person use the 'sher' ending and myself pronounce it 'sheer', which I'd assumed was the standard RP version. So, for me, 'mistier' - Gloucestershire' is only an approximate rhyme. I wonder if there any recordings of Thomas's own pronunciation?

Oh - sorry. :o My point was in fact rather more tasteless than has been supposed. It's nothing to do with Welsh pronounciation per se; it was referring to the fact that many of the American vistors to the Ebbw Vale Garden Festival pronounced "Cwm" as "Quim", blissfully unaware of its anatomical connotations. I used it in a poem and the comedian Victor Spinetti incorporated it into a stand-up routine. Here in the Valleys, we get our giggles where we can. :o

Jerome,
Interesting point! You've now got me saying all the county names out loud, to see whether I say 'sher' or 'sheer' at the end of them! I say 'York-sher', yet 'Lanca-sheer' - something I've never consciously thought about till now. Checking off the entire list from Google (can't believe I've gone to these lengths!) I do pronounce most of them 'sheer', with the possible exceptions of 'Wilt-sher' and 'Hamp-sher' - not sure about 'Berk-sher'... the rest of the world is probably reaching for the razor blades by this point :rolleyes:

I agree with you that 'mistier'/'Gloucestershire' is only an approximate rhyme, but 'sher' is a tad closer. (The rest of the world: my apologies if you're bored witless by this... only, now I'm starting to wonder about 'Stafford-sher, Stafford-sheer). Blimey, Jerome, I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight with all this going through my head.

Ann,
You're a very naughty girl! I've never heard anyone pronounce 'cwm' as 'quim' (heehee) - but then I've led an extremely sheltered life :D
Victor Spinetti? Isn't he about 120 years old by now? :confused:

Shires, again
 

Jayne, Jerome... a few more words on the English pronunciation of "-shire!" I just spoke to my 92-year-old Dad. He believes that one says either "sheer" or "sher" (which he made sound more like "shuh.") He's lived in Derbyshire (Dah-bi-sher) and Leicestershire (Lester-sher) for most of his life... If "shuh," that's closer to Thomas' "mistier," isn't it? For my own part, I also wonder if the pronunciation has something to do with class and region... Northerners tend to lengthen syllables, don't they? And I think it IS Lanca-sheer, Jayne! Well, some people might be tearing their hair out at this point, but I find such things fascinating!
(By the way, Jayne, loved "latex" in your metrical poem today!)