Anna, Carol--

Okay, let me back off a bit. Certainly, there are the likes of Anna who are working through the MFA system and writing metrical verse. I don't think that the environment is conducive to that as a whole. BUT, it's probably more conducive than it was fifteen or twenty years ago.

Some of my best friends have MFAs... well, reasonably good friends, at least, and one close friend, so I'm not knocking that route, or the people who take it, per se. In some ways, I'd see someone like Anna (already has a well-developed style and enough publication to indicate that someone thinks she's doing something right) as the ideal person to do an MFA program. My objections to MFA programs are three-fold:

1. That they cost too much, as a rule--it's cynical to think that one can pay back massive loans through "creative writing."

2. I'm not sure a degree-job-tenure track model makes much sense for poetry.

3. I strongly dislike the notion that "serious" literature should be campus-centered--as poetry in the U.S. is.

Now, the Formalist Mafia--of course there's a Formalist Mafia. There's also a L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E Poetry Mafia, a Post-Confessionalist Mafia, etc. It would be hard to see there not being these things. So long as someone publishes the key journals, sponsors and judges the key contests, and so forth, there will be poetry mafias. That's neither good nor bad; it's unavoidable. What I'm saying, I suppose, is that there have been some inroads into the MFA, etc. system, and I'm not sure that's a good thing in a broad sense--and yes, one does encounter "formalists" in MFA programs, even if they are an embattled minority. But unless creative writing programs are different than the humanities... everybody's an embattled minority. The Gallophile theorists, the Marxists, the New Historicists, the Annalistes, the humanists, etc.--all feel under threat, rightly or wrongly. And the institution still manages to self-sustain and shuffle along.

In the narrow sense, though, best of luck with the program, Anna.

Quincy

Mark

It goes through phases where the amount of activity varies. This time of year I generally don't hit the forum much - too much going on.

Not too long ago few people were posting on Metrical, and a lot of activity on TDE.

Don't worry, Mark, it's not going anywhere.

"Don't worry, Mark, it's not going anywhere."

Phew!

Thank goodness for that, Jerry.

I have some experimental metricals I would like to test there.

I can't wait to see if they are legal.

http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/smile.gif


(And where is the note to explain your absence, Jerry?)

Well as a reasonably new poet and member, I've learnt alot from both criticism and being critiqued on TDE and plenty from the other boards (especially trolling through Mastery and Discerning Eye).

So long may they flourish! And thanks.

Having posted stuff that is anything but metrically regular ( e.g. Settlement) I think I've had a fair hearing.

I don't know where the hell else I'd go for the info and more particularly the feedback, having no background in studying English or writing for that matter. All delivered in a reasonably fiesty fashion.

Peter, I am pleased to hear of your positive experiences here. And as I said earlier, even though I might whinge a bit sometimes, and have a bit of a hair-trigger on certain issues, I am just coming up to my third anniversary on this site.

It's true, there is more I.Q. per pixel around here than any other site I know.

I am glad you are enjoying it.

LOL - my wife refuses to write one for me.

After a dry spell, I've been taking advantage of a wet season to get some writing done. Between that and a VW I'm restoring, I haven't had much time for anything else.

Thanks for the general good wishes, Quincy!

Here's my take on MFA programs etc. as a formalist within. There are of course all sorts of poetry cliques, from L=A=N=G... to New Formalists, and sure, they have a greater tendency to publish, award and promote from their own ranks. Life is like that everywhere. (NB: These don't necessarily operate solely WITHIN academe, although some/most members may be there.) It's not fair, but there are things you can do about it e.g. start your own journal, and make sure it publishes real criticism and accepts poems on merit. That's what I did.

The more dangerous (in my opinion) thing is the loose grouping of 'poets who teach' which transcends genres but is of course centered in academe. There is a lack of real peer criticism circulating within this group, and I think that's unhealthy. It takes outsiders like Dana Gioia and, yes, John Barr (though I don't agree with everything he said) to smell the shit on the roses, so to speak.

As a qualified engineer turned housewife/mother, one of the reasons I started the MFA was to gain some poetry credibility. Interestingly, a year in, I think the journal has done a better job of increasing my credibility so far. But I'm going to see the MFA through. I may even teach one day. I don't think I'll ever knuckle under to the po-biz mafia though. Fortunately for me I'm financially independent.

Now, where's that cloaking device gone again?

Anna

Anna,

I'm curious as to what you mean by "poetry credibility," and why you felt you lacked it. Would you mind switching off the cloaking device for another few minutes to elaborate?

Rose

Of course. It appears to be broken anyway. Damn Klingons!

I know not everyone is lucky enough to live in an area with a lively poetry scene, but where I live in New Jersey life is pretty cool that way. There's always lots going on in the way of readings, workshops and Open Mics and there are several local poetry journals (Journal of NJ Poets, Exit 13, US1 Worksheets etc. etc.)

As my kids became more independent a few years ago I started to be able to get more involved in this poetry scene. I began turning up to readings regularly, reading in the Open Mics and submitting to the journals. It was clear to me, however, that some form of credibility played a part in securing featured readings and publication. As an example, around this time two years ago a local Reading Series sent out a call for local poets to submit resumes and poetry samples with a view to appearing at their venue. I submitted mine. No dice. This time last year they asked again, and I resubmitted. I don't think my poetry had changed much but my resume had improved to the tune of one Pushcart Prize nomination, one editorship of an e-zine, and one MFA program acceptance. (I think I even sent them the same poetry samples.) I got a reading. Since adding the MFA (and bear in mind I haven't even completed it yet) to my bio I've been invited to lecture locally on formal poetry twice, and I'm supposed to be running a workshop myself in Philadelphia next Spring.

I suppose part of this is in my head but it's as if when I first started going to events I had a sign around my neck that said "Housewife/Mother/Recreational Poet" and now I've got one that says "Editor/MFA Student/Serious Poet."

Does that make sense?

Cheers,

Anna

Not really. I mean, it does from a practical point of view, but I guess the idealist in me is horrified at the thought of your needing an MFA to gain these people's respect and be published by them. If they can't recognize talent without an acronym attached to it, it seems to me their respect isn't worth much, and any validation you get from being published by them must necessarily be tempered by the knowledge that they have no minds of their own. But that's just my own naturally rebellious point of view, and in any case I'm sure that pursuing an MFA has other benefits (like, you know, learning stuff :). Thanks for clarifying.

Anna, not only do you make sense, but you do so in fine concise prose. I hope the cloaking device stays off. It's high time you switched allegiance from Romulus to Vulcan. (Wasn't Romulus the source of cloaking technology?)

Welcome, and I hope you'll decloak next at nearly defunct TDE.

Alan

Well, this thread has assured me that TDE will indeed survive.

Which is good to know, since I intend to post again there soon.

I did enjoy my return to posting, on the Metrical board. But now (as Barry Humphries once said of his desire to find the rest-room) I want to be where the big nobs hang out.

Anna,

I know exactly what mean. Though I have been writing poetry for awhile, I seldom submit anything, as matter of fact, I am exactly one for three as far a acceptances go. The main reason I have been dissuaded from submitting is those little bio’s most publications ask for, since I don’t have even a highschool diploma. I have been involved with many schools in the last thirty-six years - Harvard, Dartmouth and several of the UMass campuses unfortunately I was there to build a building not enrolled.

Gene

It was more about the readings than publication, to be honest. I don't know that I was ever accepted or rejected by a local journal simply because of my resume, although several local journals have now asked me to appear at readings they sponsor. Of course I always assume my ACCEPTANCES are on merit... http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/smile.gif

But yes, what bothered me was going round to these local readings and hearing featured readers who were worse than poor. However, no-one ever asked ME to do a reading although my Open Mic contributions were invariably very well received. One woman (A US1 Poet) actually laughed in my face a year or two back when I went up and introduced myself afterward to ask if she might consider me as a reader.

I should explain further--I love to do readings. I used to be into acting as a teen and now as a wife/mother/skivvy I don't get a whole lot of that positive feedback I used to get from performing on a stage. Call me shallow, by all means!

There's a blog entry here which goes into more detail about my various reasons for doing the MFA (which is a slightly different question to the one about credibility.) I was trying to respond to your question quickly, and probably didn't cover all my bases.

Thanks for the invite, Alan. I may take you up on it some time!

Anna

Anna,
While I recognise the political shrewdness of your decision and also applaud and sympathise with the desire to read and learn a great deal more under the guidance of others who have also done these things, I do experience an attack of nausea and rebellion which I know you will understand and even share to some extent.

I'm a real snob. I always wonder about those who have to flaunt their background instead of their work, but I have no power to assist you, (or me) to become published. I too have edited poetry ezines and I did pay attention to names whose work had pleased me in the past but I couldn't give a tinker's cuss whether they had graduated with fanfares or been kicked out of every institution in the English-speaking world. I know you are right. That is how it is. In the end self-respect is what matters most and I'm foolish enough to think that integrity counts for something in poetry. It is possible to be sincere and a politician at the same time. Robert Frost proved that and the scene has become even more repulsive in recent years.

You wrote that you are "picky" about villanelles. I am too. Many of us are.

I guess what matters most nowadays, if recognition and publication are to be achieved, is the same killer instinct that athletes are supposed to have.

Good luck ;)
Janet

I'm looking at the latest issue of Margie: An American Journal of Poetry, an annual. Pieces originally published in it appeared in last year's Best American Poetry, so it ain't chopped liver. Wish I could get in; recently got rejected.

I'm looking at the bio section. Yes, it has Gioia and a lot of professors, teachers, much-published poets, and MFA students. But it also has these:

"John Alexanderson is a Prudential retiree, school bus driver, and grandfather in Doylestown, PA. He is thankful to still be a runner at age 61 and to have published his first chapbook, When Least Expected, earlier in the year."

"Kathryn Gahl is a writer, dancer, and registered nurse. Her poems and stories appear in over thirty journals...Mother of five, she lives in Wisconsin with her second and last husband."

"Elizabeth Langemak lives in Columbia, MO"

"Rachel Lindley is a Canadian woman who, after undergoing brain surgery to remove a tumor, began to read and teach herself to write poetry in an effort to recover neurological skills understanding complex symbolism. It worked."

To get to the point: There are still places where the poetry and only the poetry counts, and not any credential. We should help each other find them.

Maryann

Janet, you have mentioned this issue a number of times - your suggestion that somehow credentials are influential in getting published.

I think the correlations you notice between publication and qualification are a function of the individual's linguistic facility, rather than a selective process whereby editors choose poems from the more academically qualified poets.

If you have a facility with language, then it is likely you will end up in a language-centered field of work, like journalism or teaching, etc. And for these you need an academic qualification. If you then write poems and submit them for publication, it is more likely that your inherent facility with words is what gets the poetry noticed, rather than the editor's selection on the basis of those qualifications.

I truly believe that any editor worth his or her salt will ALWAYS take the better poem, rather than the best qualified poet.

Mark,
I was replying to Anna. I have observed that certain narrow paths are trodden in some areas of poetry. While your broader observations are correct they don't in any way invalidate what I said. There is a certain kind of trained "good taste" and educated politeness about certain awards and publications and it's probably as much due to conditioning as to prejudice. It is also about wealth and serendipity. It's little signals that say you are "one of us". And the over all effect is one of blandness.

Who says which editors are "worth their salt"? Aren't you confusing idealism with fact?
Janet

Mark, read Anna's last two posts again. Now that she's pursuing an MFA, people who dismissed her out of hand before are treating her with respect. That's what Janet and I are responding to. Obviously Anna was talented before she enrolled, and she's even pointed out that her writing style hasn't changed much since then, so why did they laugh in her face the first time she asked to give a reading?

[cross-posted with Janet]


[This message has been edited by Rose Kelleher (edited November 22, 2006).]

I'd just like to point out that I did say earlier in this thread that I think editing the journal has done a better job of increasing my 'credibility' in this local poetry scene than the MFA.

It's pretty clear to me that I'm not political enough to REALLY benefit from the MFA, given that I continue to argue with my professors and criticize published poets. Having said that, I'm going to stick with it. It's still a teaching qualification, last time I checked, AND I'm learning all the time.

Cheers,

Anna

[This message has been edited by Anna Evans (edited November 22, 2006).]

My answer would be that the person she asked was a shallow snob, and I would not want that person's approbation under any circumstances.

And yes, I do believe such things go on in po-business, which is why I choose to stay well away from it.

But when it comes to publication (and you are an editor, Rose, so you can answer): here are two poems to choose from: a brilliant piece from a retired baker, and a worthy but rather dull piece from an MFA - which do you take?

A mag choosing poems on the basis of the poet's academic qualifications would soon end up a laughing stock, I would suggest.

But then again, for as long as poetry is only being read by poets, any sort of cliquey stuff is possible, I suppose.


(Shudder).



[This message has been edited by Mark Allinson (edited November 22, 2006).]

I don't submit to local journals, so I wouldn't know what they take. From what I've seen I suspect just about anything. There are exceptions, of course, but when you submit to national and international publications it helps to have credits or a recommendation from somebody who has. That's because publishing is a business, and magazines are trying to make a name for themselves in a niche market. The supply of material--even good material--greatly exceeds the demand. Joe the Rag Man's name won't sell subscriptions or draw well-known poets to a reading event. So Famous Poet will get crap published while Joe S. gets better work rejected. Unless his name or the name of the referrer sends up a flag, he may not even get his submission read before it's dumped on the reject pile.

Getting started is like applying for your first credit card. The application asks you to list three or four major credit card accounts--just to make sure somebody else has taken a chance on you first. Once you get established you start receiving unsolicited pre-approvals, and the cards you have keep upping your credit line hoping you'll buy a car.

As for recognizing and opting for a superior poem over a poem by a known writer, who decides what is superior and what isn't? There must be at least as many opinions as there are poets. Besides, all those other publications can't be wrong...

Carol

That's right, Carol. And for as long as po-mags are a "niche business", selling their product to a more or less tiny, captured audience of submitter/readers, this sort of in-crowd bias is likely.

And while I would always agree that personal taste is a factor in deciding which is the "better" poem, I believe we can all tell when the difference between a hair-bristler and a yawner.

Anna, I hope it's clear I'm not dissing you or your course of study. What I object to is the dismissive treatment you received before you enrolled.

Mark, I know what I would do, but I can't vouch for all other editors. Lots of them print poems I think are rather dull.

Anna,
I second Rose in saying I'm not "dissing" you either("what ever that means?" she mumbled in Fraffly;)

Since I have no hope of entering the caucus race I must just blunder on.

More power to you,
Janet

Lots of them print poems I think are rather dull.

But maybe the poets' qualifications are really excellent.

http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/smile.gif

Carol,
If only they "recognise" the poem with their gut and brain and not with their fashion sense.

I think all those publications are often wrong. But together they are strong;)
That episode of "Seinfeld" where everyone started eating their "Snicker?" bar with a knife and fork was pretty spot on.
Janet

But Janet, why would you even want to be part of such an in-crowd, and be published for who, not what, you are?

This is why I would prefer to publish in e-mags like TSCR, where po-snobs will never submit.

Don't worry about upsetting me, Rose & Janet. I'm pretty ambivalent about the MFA myself, to be honest, although I do think it's been beneficial for me in several ways.

And I'd like to remind everyone that I am in The Shit Creek Review...

http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/smile.gif

Anna

"And I'd like to remind everyone that I am in The Shit Creek Review..."

That's right, Anna.

It's one of those pubs where we "met" recently.

Anna,
You're blessedly honest and I'm sure you will use your power wisely ;)
Janet

Let me see if I understand you correctly, Mark.

I'll sneer at all those poetry snobs,
for I'm a better man by far.
They're snooty in their in-group mobs,
while I am pure at SCR.

Is that about it?

Ah Michael, you are expressing a version of Oscar Wilde's Lady Bracknell:
Never speak disrespectfully of Society, Algernon. Only people who can't get into it do that."

janet

[This message has been edited by Janet Kenny (edited November 22, 2006).]

Except, Janet, that I'm hardly defending Society either. After all, I'm far less of a member of any elite group than Mark - I have no formal literary education, no Greek or Latin, no experience in Academia. Just trying to make the point (and again, just now and unwittingly, by bragging about my own 'umble background) that snobbery works both ways.

Algernon



[This message has been edited by Michael Cantor (edited November 22, 2006).]

Michael, you are one of the most articulate and educated people I have met. Take that!
Point well made.

(I sent an email--did you get it? My email system is playing up.)
Janet



[This message has been edited by Janet Kenny (edited November 22, 2006).]

Michael,


Heraclitus was no clown:
up he said’s the same as down.
And since the crowds up on the peak
are thick, I’ll sail down shit creek.