Lee, thanks for all these generous insights. I'm going to try a revision of my lone effort to see if I'm any closer to getting it.


Icy walking bridge.
Below, the highway screams.
Even air is frozen.

Greetings, Lee.

Below are the 9 haiku I posted in the open mike, plus one new one.

Crickets near corn field:
Is this grand recital for
The ears of the corn?

A praying mantis
Squashed dead against the doorjamb —
Preyed on by the door.

One tiny cricket
Stridulates in the bedroom.
My dog sleeps; I don’t.

A green grasshopper
Clings to the bedroom lampshade;
The window's open.

Dog days of summer;
Fruit flies fly around
In the refrigerator.

The dog is scratching;
A wee flea on his hind leg
Is getting seasick.

Sleep … Walk dog … Eat … Walk
dog … Sleep … Walk dog … Eat … Walk dog …
Sleepwalk … Eat dog … Oops!

What’s Fido feeling
Riding in the fast auto,
Autumn flying past?

In a shop window,
A dog sees his reflection—
Both of them growling.

Naked clothes hangers
Lined up like xylophone bars;
Sunbeams play their wood

Maryann,

If I may make a comment on your piece -

I like this one, as well as the original one. It evokes a certain feeling (and I mean that in a sensual way), but I find it static. Each line repeats a moment and the piece fails to progress in terms of space and time.

The juxtaposition or the caesura of haiku implies a leap, either in time or space or both.

But the static nature of your haiku may work for others. I s'pose my crit isn't so much a crit but an opinion.

Incidentally, has anyone come across Pierre Reverdy's notion of the poetic image? Whilst he never wrote haiku himself, the presence of a juxtaposing cut in the form of haiku reminds me of his idea that:

"[the poetic image] is not born from a comparison but from a juxtaposition of two more or less distant realities.
"The more distant and true the relationship between the two realities, the stronger the image will be - the more emotional power and poetic reality it will have."

I have this idea in mind whenever I'm writing haiku! It's almost as though Pierre were talking about haiku.....

Stuart

Another haiku lesson - do not get up at 5:45 am, see the full moon in the west, dash off a haiku, then think you can post it in a master class without revising it.

Today's turtle update - I saw the same turtle, in the same spot on the highway's center strip, now squashed. Poor turtle!

Mary, I can never understand why turtles get hit. It just breaks my heart. It's not like they are darting out in front of the car. A slight swerve or tires on either side and the turtles fine. I think there are asses out there who purposely run them over. Okay done. Sorry Lee!

Donna

Steve, It sounds like what you are referring to is what we often call "nature notes." Though haiku often begin as journal entries, a journal entry generally do not make a haiku (sic). Something must be added if it isn't already there: significance. As you point out, without significance we have a "so what?" haiku.

p.p.s. Charge!

Shalom Lee

we read, we try to learn and we'll see just how much by your (much appreciated) comments - and so, another beginner charges (in):


Tulips, a fine spray
Bloemenmarket's scented carpet
guaranteed never-shrink

Mist powders gracht* foliage
faster than scant sun-breezes dust:
water off cygnets’ backs

“The Jewish Bride” hosts
immaculate despite centuries
dead flies at her hem

[*canal]

Haiku, in memory of the turtle.

bird's nest
balls of fluff
under your bed


winter coat
a shot of heat
red hair on the collar

Lee, you have been marvelous. If you have time, could you say if these are nearer haiku than my first attempts?

Cally

Cally. I used to live in the city where road kill was the norm daily- cats, dogs, brats,

Now in a town of 27000 workers there is not a rat to be seen squished. Seems we aim to kill for the thrill of it when not busy.

so I want to give your pet a new life ~~ henie

Turtle tin
In a spin
Middle of a road

Maryann, It really would be much, much better if you could share more than one poem, but absent that please send both versions of this one. Lee

And greetings, Martin! Some thoughts on your poems . . .

Crickets near corn field:
Is this grand recital for
The ears of the corn?


A praying mantis
Squashed dead against the doorjamb —
Preyed on by the door.

One tiny cricket
Stridulates in the bedroom.
My dog sleeps; I don’t.

A green grasshopper
Clings to the bedroom lampshade;
The window's open.

Dog days of summer;
Fruit flies fly around
In the refrigerator.

The dog is scratching;
A wee flea on his hind leg
Is getting seasick.

Sleep … Walk dog … Eat … Walk
dog … Sleep … Walk dog … Eat … Walk dog …
Sleepwalk … Eat dog … Oops!

What’s Fido feeling
Riding in the fast auto,
Autumn flying past?

In a shop window,
A dog sees his reflection—
Both of them growling.

Naked clothes hangers
Lined up like xylophone bars;
Sunbeams play their wood

One of the most important characeristics of haiku is its openendedness or element of "incompleteness." This incompleteness permits the reader to experience the poem from the inside rather than the outside. As I look at these haiku, Martin, they all, with the exception of the two with rhetorical questions, are end stopped, thus depriving the reader of opportunity to become a co-creator of the experience. Lee

Ha, ha! No problem! Lee

And shalom to you, Seree. We are all beginners in a sense, myself included. Most days I, too, am humbled by haiku.


Tulips, a fine spray
Bloemenmarket's scented carpet
guaranteed never-shrink

Mist powders gracht* foliage
faster than scant sun-breezes dust:
water off cygnets’ backs

“The Jewish Bride” hosts
immaculate despite centuries
dead flies at her hem

[*canal]

As in my comments to Martin, I would like to see more open-endedness in your haiku. I will look forward to more. (Also, could you tell me why "The Jewish Bride" is in quotes?) Lee

Cally, Please, don't be so kind! We don't want to give people the wrong idea!

>bird's nest
balls of fluff
under your bed


winter coat
a shot of heat
red hair on the collar

Yes, these have a nice ease of expression to them. Forge ahead! Lee

Thanks, Lee! It's like there's a kind of membrane that needs piercing so the emotion can seep into the image. Could you give me your impression of this one, that Mary and henie got a kick out of yesterday?

blue-tongued lizard
soaks in the sun
a tube of toothpaste

Cally

Lee I edited the haiku on page one – in my attempted Haibum I’m happy with the first now, as I feel it hits the mark of the time readily in the prose -- but I might be wrong http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/biggrin.gif I dumped the second out of hand, and rethought--

Moths in the pantry
asleep in season’s
peppered reality

``````
with rations
every one
counts

-and Amended prose—to match

To have a memory like that! Forever is a plastic box
the dimensions of a short day, and the fortitude to spread
generations hoping for the lid to be burped; an open time,
that lets one part of you get free.




[This message has been edited by Henrietta kelly (edited October 16, 2008).]

Also, just want to vastly agree with something Henie said earlier - about what's true for haiku is true for all poetry.

I remember saying on the other thread something about how haiku seems to be the hot-spot of all poetry.

It's the seed crystal.

Cally

Lee, I've got a new one - what do you think, please?

full moon
for all - civil partnerships
for some


Also, do you like my revision from "live" to "peering" in this one?

peering turtle
on the highway’s center strip
fucked

Also, a question. The leap in haiku reminds of the leap in the ghazal. Are you familiar with ghazals? Do you see any connection with haiku? I feel that if I hadn't already practiced leaping in ghazals, I would have been less able to leap in haiku.

Thanks!!!
Mary

Lee,
thank you so much for comment--I am flattered to get more
critical comments. I hadn't even thought of the
macabre reading of the first haiku, and I see what you mean about
the closeness--indeed the color of the the afternoon light is very
close to the blush of the cheek. I'll have to think about how to
add a bit more of a spark, intensify the blush.

The muskrat is too much a description.

Thanks for enjoying the bratwurst--what would Basho and Kikaku say?

Thanks again for all your time.

Martin

Many thanks, Lee, for having looked at those haiku and for your feedback.

Do you mean by "end stopped" that there is a period (punctuation) or is it more about the content? What are some of the ways (besides using a question mark) that a haiku can be openended?

Regarding the first one I sent:

Crickets near corn field:
Is this grand recital for
The ears of the corn?

Stephen Collington rewrote this as

crickets in chorus:
under the moon the corn stands
with attentive ears

I really like what he did with it. But it's not openended -- is it? Or am I missing something about what you said?

Martin

Donna, I really like this:

frosted pasture
guernsey cows milking
the morning sun

Here is one I just wrote about a 4th of July memory.

The boom of fireworks:
Beside a pitch-dark back road
A small dog lies dead.

To balance the gloom of that one, I'll add one that is lighter:

On the putting green
a caterpillar crawls toward
a tree with one leaf.



[This message has been edited by Martin Elster (edited October 17, 2008).]

Hi Lee,
first a question. For me sonics is more half of poetry. Haikus obviously belong to image first school, but is here any place in Japanese or English for the effects of part rhyme, alliteration etc to emphaise the images or is that against the purist philosophy?

Here are some I've attempted under the heading Bunlgeboori Creek. There an attempt to pull the reader into the ambience

Coachwood
in the north wind - arrows
fresh shot, quivering

Panther pads
in the forest - vines
twist to the sky

A skim of water
one foot of bank -
two hundred of sandstone

fallen logs
after dusk - fireflies
with quiet noels

Here are some rhyming haiku by Paul Muldoon.

(Stephen, thanks for your continuing help - I've tried again, as you see.)

And Lee, thanks very much in advance. I'm entirely new to haiku also.
I have a question about punctuation. Is it generally left off? Put in? Your choice?

Behind the house
apple branches break
bears grow fatter

cold sails
billow in the wind
a moonlit lake

Brown eyes follow me
tail wagging, mouth apant -
I prefer the cat.

Hi to both Lee and Stephen


“The Jewish Bride” hosts
immaculate despite centuries
dead flies at her hem

* * *
Lee - not sure of correct procedure when it comes to haiku, but "The Jewish Bride" is the title of a famous Rembrant, thus the quotes. As all three haiku were Holland-focused, I wondered about using the title as indicating the aspect of specific time; then using her continuously pristine state, comparing to the centuries that fall about her, as passing time.

Stephen - in order to better understand the idea of open-ended,(Lee also referred to Martin in this respect - hello Martin! nice to have you as a boat-mate!) - can you DO something with any of the 3 pieces I posted to show open as opposed to closed ??? thanks.



[This message has been edited by Seree Zohar (edited October 17, 2008).]

Peter - not a specific haiku observation - a side-track, actually - but have you seen a panther????

Cally

Welcome, Lee. I'm not seeing any feedback on my haiku. I could have missed it on the page, but if you haven't given any feedback yet, I'd love to hear what you think.


Thank you for the feedback, Henrietta. Is the bolded poem a revision you are suggesting to me? I'm afraid I don't understand the meaning of the new poem.

These were my haiku. They're all I can come up with right now.

black tree, white skies.
filmed. framed.
look up! birds soar.

OR


black tree, white skies.
filmed. framed.
look up! birds fly away.

Hi, Cally. Like it! It reminds me of a favorite of mine by John Stevenson:

long day
the chameleon’s
tongue

Lee

Cally, "Seed crystal" is a great metaphor for haiku!

Lee

I am afraid I still have problems with both of these as free-standing haiku. Truth is, i am not much of a fan of having the third line as an interpretive statement like "peppered reality." Once again, this end-stops the haiku and takes away any opportunityh for participation of the reader. The second haiku is so abstract that, as I reader, I haven't any idea where i am when the poem starts nor do I have any idea where i am when i finish. Please put yourself in the reader's shoes. "with rations every one counts." This seems to be a statement of fact, but as a reader, there is not enough information to put it together. Please, pity the reader!

Lee

hi christy

If I understand Lee you have packed too many images in this one.
We have a person with a camera taking B/W pictures of a tree, there it is framed and you the watcher ask us to look up and see the birds just as they fly away.. that’s how I read it

black tree, white skies.
filmed. framed.
look up! birds fly away.

What I was asking was maybe the centre of this should be the photographer, we look with his eyes. We see the tree , snap the frame and move on to the next, I don't think we need to know that the birds will be shot in flight in the next second, not unless it is the speed of him you are aiming for which I think is not shown
I’m on a learning curve here, editing others work to me is the fastest way to understanding. I have even played with lee’s- but don't tell him


black tree white skies
filmed framed packed
to fly away.

with rations
every 1
counts


bugger back to the drawing board-- thanks Lee for your input ~~ henie

Mary, Yes, i very much like the change from "live" to "peering". "Live" seemed like a wasted opportunity which "peering" recaptures. We get a visual image with "peering", while "live" is just an abstraction that doesn't put us on the blacktop with the poor turtle. Speaking of blacktop, here is one of mine:

prairie farmhouse--
two empty lawn chairs
facing the blacktop

And I like your "full moon" very much. Great fresh association for a full moon haiku!

I am afraid i don't know enough about ghazals to comment intelligently about them. But it seems to me that leaping is leaping!

Lee

facing the blacktop?

Lee can you explain for me what a black top is
I'm pulling my hair out here trying to see what i'm missing


edit--- dah! is it the road?

[This message has been edited by Henrietta kelly (edited October 17, 2008).]

Good morning, Martin! End-stopping: It mostly has to do with the ideational content. When we get to the end of the poem, has the poet said all there is to be said or is there something left for he reader to ponder? And by ponder i don't mean admire the poet's cleverness or wit, but something deeper--has the poet found something interesting in the experience itself that is worth sharing? In the case of both of these haiku, what the poet has found is a particular figurative interpretation of the crickets and the corn. And by interpreting the scene for the reader, the poet has denied the reader the pleasure of interprting it for him/herself. Don't get me wrong--both of these are a valid kind of haiku. They are simply not a kind of haiku that has that extra something that I look to haiku for.

There are, as you might suspect, several ways to end stop a haiku punctuation being one of them, but it is more the content of the poem I am thinking about here.

Here is a haiku that is not end-stopped:

The third of July—
in the distance a trombone
playing scales
—Alexa Selph

Yes, it presents a "complete scene," but one that leaves something for the reader to ponder. What is the significance of that particular date and the sound we are hearing? It also has a wonderful warmth and companionability that i find very inviting as a reader.

While I am at it, I am going to comment on something else. One of the challenges of seeing haiku as form, i.e., 5-7-5, is that it sometimes leads us to expressions that we would never use otherwise without embarrassment. When I read a line like "Crickets near corn field", with its awkward missing article, I wonder if English is the native language of the poet. In fact, in haikuland we have a term for this unnatural elision of articles: "Tontoism", in honor of the Lone Ranger's sidekick. (Most of you are probably too young to remember the Lone Ranger, which is probably not too much of a tragedy!)

I could say much more, but I am afraid it is time to go to work! See you all later!

Lee

Ha! Henie - that must be just how Lee felt when you talked about the 'red centre'!! Black tops and red centres - we certainly all live in different lands, don't we!

Cally

Have a good one, Kemosabi.

Thank you for the feedback, Henrietta. I guess the meaning of the poem is not obvious enough. My point was that one can look at a situation that seems so bleak but when we look out from our perspective, we can see new possibilities. Birds fly fast, so if you don't change your mindset fast enough, you may have missed out on an opportunity.

Christy it has been noted often that my way of thinking needs a code book,

others will come have faith http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/biggrin.gif