There is a craft to writing. Your contention there is not, Tom, may explain your huge success here. http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/rolleyes.gif

There's a commercial market for verse. There's not one (substantial) for literary works of poetry. Please don't confuse the two. I don't consider having verses in a Hallmark card as being 'published', anymore than I consider those vereses to be 'poetry'.

I also have no objection to someone writing Hallmark verse and getting paid for it.

Jerry,

We might not be in disagreement. Sure, there is a craft to poetry, however, the craft alone does not make a poem. Isn't there something more that affects a reader?

I see lots of poems with lots of craft and no substance.


There is a commercial market for literary poetry--but there isn't much good poetry out there. Poetry has gotten into a total subjective realm that nothing makes any difference. The bar keeps getting lower.

But still, there are a couple really good ones out there, and I am hoping they are able to come around to greater markets, so to speak.


Mark,

Another thing I have to say about teaching is something I have noted over time. I know of about 10 poets who were adamant about poetry and art when young, and then they got teaching jobs, and not much was ever heard from them again.

This may have to do with the fact that many creative people sort of burn out after age 40, I don't know.

TJ



[This message has been edited by Tom Jardine (edited November 13, 2005).]

Tom, you wrote:

‘I think teaching is inefficient, in a pragmatic manner, to any person's art in poetry. The rate of return, time for money, is backward. The equation is "time equals art" and anything else is spinning in place. Not to speak of institutions strangling freedom. Duncan, the a = b = c argument doesn't work here: we are all forever students.’

You are blind to the fact that teaching isn’t only about earning money. Time = more than money if you are doing something worthwhile with that time. I can see your idea of teaching is very negative if you see teaching institutions as ‘strangling freedom’. Anything can strangle freedom if you let it.

You also write:

‘Another thing I have to say about teaching is something I have noted over time. I know of about 10 poets who were adamant about poetry and art when young, and then they got teaching jobs, and not much was ever heard from them again.’

Well this applies to many other professions. I know of several poets who became journalists and who stopped writing poetry almost immediately. Poetry, art and music are attractive to many young people, but impractical when they settle on a career. That’s life. But it’s not teaching as such that stops them practising it. Without the teaching of poetry there would be NO ONE practising it. But perhaps your idea is that we should stop teaching poetry so that no one writes it, seeing as how what poets write is so awful.

Duncan

"Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets. Imagination without skill gives us modern art."

Tom, this line from a character in Tom Stoppard's play Artist Descending a Staircase may be a little sweeping, but it is a fact that, while a craftsman doesn't need to be an artist, every artist has also to be a craftsman.

Gregory



[This message has been edited by Gregory Dowling (edited November 14, 2005).]

And one might mention Michael Longley, whose poetic output, by his own admission, dried up completely during the years he worked for the Arts Council, only to begin flowing once more after he quit the job..

[This message has been edited by Mark Granier (edited November 14, 2005).]

Hi Katy. I don't see any coldness in SK, not in any interviews I've read or the few times I've heard/seen him talking, but, as I say, I don't know the man.

But I am often surprised at people's very different impressions. I remember on The Poem website somone rather cavalierly delclaring that Heaney was the kind of person she'd avoid at parties. Whereas the few, brief, times I've met Heaney he has struck me as the kind of person it would always be a pleasure to meet: charming, generous and humourously down to earth.

Your impressions of SK of course are another matter. You may well be right. I wouldn't doubt your perspicacity. But, from my limited knowledge anyway, he seem like a nice enough guy.

[This message has been edited by Mark Granier (edited November 14, 2005).]

Aw, and I could also be wrong!

I'm sure you're right about Heaney - even in his pictures you can tell he's a born mixer, and his poems bear that out. There's a lot of warmth there.

Oh and in response to the quote below...
...I would like to point out to Tom the term "intellectual property". Why, shure looks like the ole wurrld jest ain't-suh goshdanged simple as it ewsta be!!

Gregory you are, as so often, correctamundo. I have a very high opinion of crafts - many of them are very hard to do well - and many of them do segue into art. All arts contain a craft element, as in "knowing how to do it" or even "knowing how to do it well". This is expressed in the adage, "A poor craftsman blames his tools". I guess the poor artist these days says "I'm too good for tools"!

KEB

[This message has been edited by Katy Evans-Bush (edited November 14, 2005).]

Duncan,

Poetry, art and music are attractive to many young people, but impractical when they settle on a career.

How true. And the career often relates to the dreams and goals of a spouse. Frost said that a poet should not marry until late, and I took that to heart. Of course, it didn't do me much good, 35 years old at the time and living in a ramshackle house without central heat for 10 years.

Teaching addresses the craft of poetry, not the poet in a person.

Gregory,

...a craftsman doesn't need to be an artist, every artist has also to be a craftsman.

I agree. I just rather hear, "the poets's art" rather than "the poet's craft." Sounds better.

Mark,

And there are many other poets who did write a lot while working their careers but their craft/art does not grow or change or develop yet they still publish again and again. They become administers or essayists as well.

I have often said that the main thing for a poet to do is not to work, or work as little as possible.

TJ

Hmmm, maybe poetry stems from misery and you're more miserable when you aren't busy. But is it better poetry? I find that when I'm not working I don't do anything else either, but then I've never been a prolific writer and can't depend on producing enough poetry to keep me happy.

Carol

Well, I work a hell of a lot: I have three kids to support and no husband. I have a demanding job, too, not a 9-5 leave-it-behind-at-the-office job. Funny, that.

And while I'd love to have a LESS demanding job, it just wouldn't pay the same. There is that awkward issue of having to keep a roof over our heads!

Plus, I agree with Carol. Less is - less.