Mary

It seems to me there's a distinction that Zeiser's not making. When Patricia and I are talking about Wu songs, we're not talking about a poem - we're talking about the actual songs. Personally, they seem much more interesting than the poems Zeiser appears to be talking about - the wujei form. The songs have humor and wit, as well as a distinct way of looking at misfortune and everyday life.

In oppostion to your quote from Zeiser, I've been reading references that indicate the form you've 'introduced' here is a modern form - not 3000 years old. I admit I'm confused. Nowhere other than Zeiser quotes you've posted have I seen the term 'Wu song' used for a poem - only for the actual songs, which are songs sung in the fields.



[This message has been edited by Jerry Glenn Hartwig (edited August 08, 2006).]

Not being acquainted with Zeiser, I did a Google - apparently she's a Bay-area resident who edited an anthology (which isn't out yet) of lesbian poetry, and she runs an open-mic reading on a regular basis. You mentioned her book of 'Wu Songs', which did not come up in my search. She is often referred to as a 'local writer' in all that I read. The only example of her writing I located was in the 'Bay Times' - an interview she did with an artist. That's pretty much it.

I couldn't find anything that indicates she's has any expertise in Chinese poetry.



[This message has been edited by Jerry Glenn Hartwig (edited August 08, 2006).]

Have a nice day!

All best--
Patricia

http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/biggrin.gif[/img]XCJrKtv3eQJ:www.chinastyle.cn/essential/intangible-heritage/wu-songs.htm+wu+songs&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client =firefox-a]Mary's link

Mary

I finally found a cached version of your first link - the one we couldn't pull up. It cinfirms our realization - the wu song is not a poem, it's a song.

edit: the smiley face in the link is a : and a D that the site has interpreted as http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/biggrin.gif *grin* You'll have to copy, paste and make the change to go to the link.

[This message has been edited by Jerry Glenn Hartwig (edited August 08, 2006).]

Here' the text of Mary's link:

Wu Songs

Wu Songs refer to folk songs sung in local dialect, including shange (mountain songs), xiaodiao (small tunes), and haozi (work songs), popular in the whole Yangtze River Delta. The beautiful jiangnan area (south of Yangtze River) is the hometown of Wu Songs, while the vast Taihu Lake is known as the art form's birthplace. It is said that during the 13th century BC, at the end of the Shang Dynasty (1600-1100 BC), Emperor Zhou sent his eldest son to found a capital in today's Wuxi of Jiangsu Province and to help develop the area's culture using music.

Amazingly, the tradition of singing Wu Songs has lasted for 3,000 years. Methinks Zeiser's confused.

According to its musical form, Wu Songs fall into two types: short and long songs. The short include mountain songs, short tunes, and working songs. The gentle local dialect and sweet tunes allow listeners to relish the songs. Each has a touch of the particular region’s clear and delicate flavor.

In the past, mountain songs prevailed in almost every village of Jiangsu and Zhejiang province s, and local farmers used to refer to them as a good way to get over fatigue and irritations. Of all the mountain songs, those in Jiashan County of Zhejiang Province are the most popular. Even today, people can still sing a few of them.

There is an interesting legend concerning the Jiashan mountain songs.

A long time ago, a young man named Zhang Liang, who was good at mountain songs, came to Jiashan.

As a lover and good singer of mountain songs, Zhang Liang's singing spread wherever he went. A local girl, fascinated by his voice, fell in love with him, and soon, they got married. Poverty stricken, Zhang Liang, with his son, bid farewell to his wife and daughter to purchase waxberries with view to sell them at a higher price.

While rowing the boat, Zhang Liang kept singing all the way, and his smart son, having nothing to do, carved the lyrics all over the boat. After nine years and nine days, Zhang Liang returned home. However, everything had changed in his hometown. Both his wife and daughter failed to recognize him. He sang a love song to a local girl, who turned out to be his daughter. Embarrassed and ashamed, he burned the boat that was carved with lyrics. This is the reason it is said that local farmers of today can't sing a complete mountain song.



Love is the lingering theme of most Wu Songs, different from the theme of xiqu (the West Tune) and the northern rustic folk songs, which mainly center on the hardships experienced by businessmen on their trips or parting sorrows, Wu Songs have always been seen as an exotic flower in the literary history.

The most well known short song is entitled "Ziye Song," said to be written for a woman with the same name during the Jin Dynasty.

Like the flowing water, the short Wu Songs also have ups and downs. For instance, the songs representing the harsh lives of the poor laboring people in feudal times sound low and grave.

The mountain songs are sung at a particular time and on special occasions. Usually, the time duration spreads from the transplant of rice seedlings in spring to the harvest in autumn, and mountain songs are not sung in winter. It is really a toiling experience, plowing or weeding under the scorching sun, but singing may soothe the fatigue and help the farmers refresh themselves.

The long Wu ballads are in fact an enriched re-creation of the short songs. As the local people mainly lived on rice, in a busy farming season, they had to work long hours in the fields. In order to alleviate their fatigue, they often blended a well-plotted story into a mountain song, and sang in the fields. Besides, since wooden boats were the main traffic tool in the river-ridden area, passengers dispelled their loneliness and boredom by turning anecdotes into songs.

Whoa, I just found a longer version of the above quote. Perhaps I should have looked a little closer at Zeiser's book in the first place or been less lazy..more typing....

Mary

I still don't think Zeiser knows enough about the topic, and there's a hell of a lot more to Wu songs than she's passing off. Not all of them are four lines - read the contents of the link you posted.

Stop relying on Zeiser. Time for me to move on, and let you do your own research...

[This message has been edited by Jerry Glenn Hartwig (edited August 08, 2006).]

.


[This message has been edited by Mary Meriam (edited November 23, 2006).]

Never mind.

[This message has been edited by Michael Cantor (edited August 08, 2006).]

Mary--

When I checked out the above link, I noticed that there's some question about the translation by Ezra Pound. Also at that link, there's another translation of the LiPo poem--titled Resentment Near the Jade Stairs by Hamill.

Elsewhere, I found that the reason Pound's translation is questionable is because he didn't translate the poem from the Chinese but from a Japanese version of the poem.

It's doubtful that the poem was written using Zeiser's 4-lines, 4-beats formula because the poem was written in the wujei form--4 lines, 5 characters per line. So . . .

In case you (or Jerry or Michael or anyone else) wanna try your hand at translating the LiPo poem--and, in the process, find some way to <u>make</u> it conform to Zeiser's 4 x 4 idea of "Wu Songs"--you'll find the Chinese characters at the following URL:

http://www.mountainsongs.net/poem_.php?id=261


Be good. Take care. Don't take any wooden nickels. Etc.


All best--
Patricia