What a wonderful example of the nuance of translation.

(I am a master of the obvious.)



[This message has been edited by Roy Hamilton (edited October 15, 2008).]

henie, that's Lee's summary of his essay - I just copied it.

Donna - this gave me a chill - good one!

oops! thanks Mary http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/biggrin.gif

be sure if you steal
a dream it is tagged owner
after owner
in the other room dreaming.

edit in-- donna agree something is working but cows don’t milk themselves. I know you mean producing the milk.

maybe "coming into milk" gives two senses , you also have a beat short on L1 and L3 where you can extend if you wish to
. I use the word dew because it adds texture and a time. and a colour for ease in case the cows look is not a familiar one--

Dew frosted pasture
tan cows coming into milk

That leaves a whole line vacant for the spin of choice - mine is something we no longer get--

Cream top of the bottle



well thats what I think anyway! ~~ henie

edit Ps

I do still like the moos soaking up the light, my edit was over the top as always.




[This message has been edited by Henrietta kelly (edited October 15, 2008).]

I am not sure haibun is like reading two books at once. Let me begin with a disclaimer: I do not consider myself an expert on haibun. With that understanding, I will share some of my thoughts on it with you. There are several things I look for in a haibun. First, the haiku themselves must be successful as haiku. Otherwise, you might as well write a short story. Secondly, there must be both sufficient connection between the prose and the poem(s) to make the piece hang together as a work of literature, and at the same time there ought to be sufficient disjunction between them to make it possible for the reader/listener to experience the shift back and forth between the haiku and the prose as a shift. So, it seems, haibun is not so simple after all!

Yes, let's bring Australiana to the forefront! Lot's of fine haiku poets in Australia and New Zealand, folks.

Odd kangaroo walk
looks into the summer side
of big red centre

Forgive me. I do know what a kangaroo is, but I am afraid "big red centre" has me scratching my head. ??

Salmon Gums so pink
leaves reflecting noon light lifts
every dark mood passing

I am afraid I am puzzled as to what the connection between the salmon and and the leaves/light.

In the dawn time world
A new frog leaps to land flat
footed in mystery

My pleasure--thanks for sharing your poems!

the goslings swim
pollen coats the farm pond
my baby kicks

As I might have mentioned earlier, three images in three lines often make a haiku more disjointed that it could be otherwise. I wonder if you could connect the images of the first two lines to let the pollen give us some sense of the movement of the goslings?

A small mound of dirt
collar on a Lego cross
dandelion bouquet

moonless summer night
under the yellow porch light
a toad licks its lips

Sounds like a bad date . . . I hope he didn't try to kiss you!

brown leaf hulas down
onto the snow covered steps
at Aloha Travel

Monarch butterflies
sip water from a boot print
on a southbound trail

frosted pasture
guernsey cows milking
the morning sun

Nicely done!

scratchy laughter outside
starlings blacken the pine trees
the cat wants in-- now

One of the things that makes haiku haiku is a certain sharpness or snappiness that the brevity of haiku allows. One of the challenges of writing haiku in 17 syllables in english--which is considerably more material than the 17 sounds that a japanese haiku contains--is that the longer syllables of english lose the snap. (For example, "laughter", two syllables in english would be, by my approximate count, at least 5 japanese sounds.) Not to pick on your haiku (I could have used any number of poems as an example), but if you compare

scratchy laughter outside
starlings blacken the pine trees
the cat wants in-- now

on the "snappiness index" with one of the poems by Carmen Sterba quoted by Cally:

sunlit jar
the beekeeper's gift
on the doorstep

you will get some idea of the difference between a haiku that follows an inexactly translated form (since japanese sounds DO NOT EQUAL english syllables) with one that is more in keeping with the spirit of the japanese form of 17 sounds. Or, to use two of your own poems as examples, if you compare your

frosted pasture
guernsey cows milking
the morning sun

to your own

scratchy laughter outside
starlings blacken the pine trees
the cat wants in-- now

I believe you will agree that the poems have a completely different feel. The "frosted pasture" floats, while the "scratchy laughter" well, doesn't. I hope that everyone will consider this point carefully, because it a very critical one if one is attempting to make a poem of the same species as japanese haiku.

Lee "Salmon Gum" is the name of the tree."we also have ghost gums in like vain)
The trunks are polished and reflect the light in a deep salmon colour from light to dark-- the leaves are deep green and waxy also, and all you see driving past is flashes of light. Truly I find it hard to stay on the road.

The red centre is just that. The centre of Australia. Think of it as the core of the earth. It is our generator in this great southern land.
kangaroos ranges in size from a small mouse size to seven foot tall, a jumping machine that can gut you in one. They roar like a lion, but can also make very nice pets, boots, coats and dinner; if one is so inclined to try it.
back to the drawing board. I don't think I will have much luck translating the images.. ! maybe a holly tree would work with the leaves—but not the trunks-- never mind~~ henie

" The frosted pasture floats"

is also a great image to use lee,
I wish I could write as well as I can see
-- rhyme not intened

~~henie

Hi Joan,

I agree with Lee that this thread here may not be the best place to start into the problem of haibun--there's going to be plenty to consider just with haiku! That said, the subject is fascinating and I quite understand your eagerness to explore it.

I've been developing a few last topics for the "Haiku Resources" thread, and haibun is one of them. So I hope to have some interesting links there for everyone to look into within the next few days. Meanwhile, you may want to look at the archives of "Simply Haiku," the online haiku magazine . . . which despite the name, regularly publishes all sorts of wonderful stuff besides just haiku. There is a Haibun feature in most issues, which will give you an idea of what other poets are doing in the form today. Also, don't miss SH Haibun editor Lynne Reese's introduction to the form; it neatly clarifies some of the things to look for in a good haibun.

Simply Haiku Archives (Note: Haibun begins as a regular feature in 2004)

Haibun: Editor's Introduction, by Lynne Reese

(Bonus!) Haibun (An outline by SH's former "haibun editor"--and overall editor--Robert Wilson)

That should get you rolling!

Steve C.

Editing back: What was I thinking? I completely forgot about cho just now! And what, you ask, is "cho"?

contemporary haibun online

In particular, don't miss the "Essays and Interviews by Editors" and the "Editor's Thought Pieces" which you'll find by scrolling down on the page. Lots there to chew on!



[This message has been edited by Stephen Collington (edited October 15, 2008).]

henie! I've been outside, and collected some images of this day for you - happening right now! I did laugh - I, too, wish I could write as well as I can see, and feel! Ah well, still ... it's a glorious day!!

flowering gum
hums with red stars
spring day

blue-tongued lizard
soaks in the sun
a tube of toothpaste

Cally

editing in:

Lee, I just read your comments on Donna's haiku. That 'snappiness' explanation is very helpful. A green snap to the language, like the snap of fresh asparagus. Such a practical, useful insight. Thank you so much for sharing this. I can see, and hear, just how right you are!



[This message has been edited by Cally Conan-Davies (edited October 15, 2008).]

I do believe she got it, she got it, she got it. How delightful!