David Brasher posted this quote on Facebook:

‎"I’ve never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure." - Mark Twain.

He was evil. I can't regret the death of an evil man. It was richly deserved. He certainly lived long enough to do an unbelievable amount of damage, and if he had lived longer, he would have done a great deal more.

While I feel no particular joy in the event, I can't see the purpose of any neurotic ambivalence about these obvious facts.

Fair enough, Maryann (and Adam).

Shaun, you fill me with despair.

Terese, ambivalence is not always neurotic.
Facts are never obvious.

Roger, humor and nuance mix well.

Nemo

Nemo,

It *is* hard to avoid despair while watching all this, even while reading this thread. The racism apparent in post #6, the reminders- from another individual- of the prevailing rhetoric of those past days. We wish always to think we're moving forward, that we've become better than we were, and yet...

Still, none of the words in this thread are as bad as the songs sung outside the white house the other night. After all, we're not talking about a football game.

Just as troubling, now, are those people who engaged in, or advocated for, the use of torture in those days, in our names. They briefly came out of the woodwork to justify their past actions. But it turns out their torture had nothing to do with it, the information came out years after they were finished with their victims.

Why, then, do they continue to try to justify themselves through the use of what they know are untruths, to use this or any other occasion to declare themselves "vindicated?" It's almost as if they have enough humanity within themselves to know that what they did was reprehensible, but not quite enough to admit how wrong they were.

I heard yesterday there's a passage in the old testament (or is it the Torah?) where God himself remonstrates the angels for rejoicing over the drowning of the Egyptians. I have no idea if that passage exists, Julie would know better than I. But if it does, it seems to be proof that we've made little progress over the last few thousand years. And maybe we're even backsliding...

Thanks,

Bill

Nemo,

Did I say ambivalence is always neurotic? Of course not.

These facts, ie the ones I stated, are quite obvious to me, though they may not be to you.

I'll give you 100 to 8 it doesn't exist in the Bible. The OT God isn't given to bursts of pity for Israel's enemies. God isn't the same thoughout , as Bernard Shaw pointed out a hundred years ago. But Jesus is a REAL improvement.

Bill,

I hope -- really, truly hope -- that you're referring to the racism I pointed out, rather than implying that the post itself was racist in any way. Muslims around the world are ashamed of the atrocities Osama committed in the name of their religion. Osama's acts prompted the incredible ignorance of many Caucasians around the world to believe (erroneously) that Islam is a militant religion and that Arabs are "bad" people. While the ignorance is our own, the fact that Bin Laden did his acts in the name of Islam makes the incorrect perception at least somewhat understandable.

But no matter how you look at it, how can you not be pleased / happy / satisfied / proud / jubillant over the fact that a mass murderer and the leader of the world's biggest terrorist group is dead?

I'm back and mightily relieved that all's going smoothly. To answer Nemo's question (though Maryann has done so very well), I think we express our views because we feel the need. Our views matter a lot to us. But let's be realistic, and modest. Do any of us think that even one fellow member will go away from this thread thinking differently from before? Still less, do any of us think that the people who make and carry out foreign policy are paying attention to us?

It's a fine way to engage with our fellow human beings and citizens of the world, but unlike the workshopping of a poem I don't think it achieves anything.

Robert Fisk, as usual, is saner than most on this matter:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...g-2278028.html

I did hope this might put an end to all the "Obama is a closet Muslim" talk, but if you're that kind of person, nothing stops you.