Not to toot my own horn, but just for the record, I told you so.

Roger,

Sometimes arguments are good and get things done. I don't know why you're so angry about my posting. Maybe I shouldn't have posted at all, but I saw yet another member dismiss every single crit and wondered why he/she posted a poem at all. What's the point of entering a workshop if you think your poem is already perfect and you're just going to dismiss everything the teachers say? I didn't mean to say that writers who post poems should immediately revise according to what other members advise. I just meant to say something about etiquette, I guess. I keep seeing members dismissing crits instead of being open to them.

It's telling that you use the word "teacher." In some cases it's correct; the person posting is inexperienced and looking for instruction. But in other cases, the person posting wants the reaction of peers.

In those cases, it's perfectly reasonable to reply, politely, that a critic has misunderstood. A poem may use specific terms that are meaningful to a narrow audience; if a reader doesn't belong to that audience, that reader will misread. The poet might eventually decide to aim the poem less narrowly. Or not.

And there are other points to posting. One is to say to the world "I'm still working." That might be the case for an experienced poet who's been quiet for a while. As long as the poems are unpublished and the poet offers crits to others, this is legit.

Another is to resolve doubts about whether anybody will understand. If nobody understands, it isn't wrong to reply "This is what I was attempting," and leave it there, waiting to make a private decision about whether to trash the poem or revise it.

It's tempting to believe the critiques we give are the ultimate wisdom and to want to see them followed. I think we have to resist the temptation. I think we have to be wise enough to just offer our thoughts and move on.

But the "inexperienced" aren't welcome here, right? Someone just reminded me that this isn't a forum for beginners.

The last poem I posted I wasn't sure of, and said so, and someone criticized me for posting a poem I wasn't sure of. So are we to post poems we're completely sure of (and for what reason, if this is a workshop?) or poems we're not sure of?

Excellent post, Maryann.

Elise: where is the argument? I haven't seen one yet, nor have I seen any anger. This has become a circular thread of 40+ posts...about half of which say the same thing.

I think you're making too many assumptions about the people posting. As has been mentioned several times already, different poets are going to use a workshop differently. There's no "one way," and beyond some basic guidelines, how a critique is given and received is totally up to the individual critics and poets. And I think Maryann is right to point out the idea of "teacher." It might be better to think of poets and critics as "colleagues" instead, since the roles of poet and critic are constantly cycled. And some people are just going to post a poem and not respond to comments. It can be annoying sometimes, but that's just life. Some have better "etiquette," as you put it, than others, and no amount of Emily Posting will change that.

If that were true, I would have been in terrible trouble eight years ago, when I first started posting. There's a difference between "beginner" and "inexperienced." Eratosphere is short-tempered with absolute beginners, but it was very good indeed with a poet who had the basics down and was looking for reassurance, encouragement, and observations about the fine points.

"Not sure of" is ambiguous, isn't it? If it means "this is a first draft," then it may be true that it's too soon to post.

But if it means "I could have made different decisions about a lot of these lines, and I need to see how these decisions will fly," then of course one should post if one wants to test them and has faith in the people who read here. And if it means "I don't know whether this will make sense to people," then it's reasonable to post. It's also reasonable to test the poem privately with somebody whose judgment you trust.

So while I haven't read the thread you're referring to, I think that particular criticism may have been a bit overbroad.

I don't believe this is a circular argument, especially when some members are giving certain "rules" that may or may not be true. I actually, really thought there was a rule about not dismissing your crits. Someone said at some point that you're supposed to accept your crits, whether you revise or not. So sue me.

I also really didn't know that beginning poets weren't welcome to post their poems, that this forum is for only experienced, published writers. Personally, I don't believe in that rule and don't know how it can possibly be enforced. I feel like a beginner each time I begin a poem.

As far as my own poetry goes, I now don't know what to post -- poems I'm sure of, or poems I'm not sure of. So sue me again.

Just as you don't see the point of posting a poem and then not revising in response to critiques, I don't see the point of posting a question and then not engaging with the answers people have patiently provided. I'm guessing you don't want any answer but "You're absolutely right! Good point!"

Perhaps you should simply accept the fact that you're possibly the only person here who thinks that a failure to revise in reaction to critiques means that the poet must have thought the poem was perfect to begin with. As I said, a poet may be generally satisfied with a poem but wish to put it to a final test. Or a poet may be dissatisfied with the poem but also dissatisfied with the suggestions for improvement. Or maybe the poet is unable to come up with a solution to issues that are raised. In any case, a failure to follow the suggestions made by the "teachers" does not logically suggest that the poet thought the poem was already perfect, no matter how many times you keep insisting that it does.*

If these answers do not strike you as satisfactory, or you disagree with their premises, then by all means you can attempt to explain why. But you haven't done that. You've simply retreated to your initial question, rudely ignoring the people who have taken the time to try to answer the question already. Which suggests to me that you weren't actually seeking an answer to your question but were seeking agreement and praise for your insight.

But I do agree with you when you say "Maybe I shouldn't have posted at all." There's an insight I can get behind.

_____

* It's interesting that you use the word "teachers" to describe people who offer comments and critiques. Maybe that's at the heart of our disagreement.

I'm sorry, but in response to all of you, certain members said that you're supposed to graciously accept your crits, and other certain members said that this isn't a forum for beginners. I've seen members criticized for both things by other members. I actually don't know what the real rules are at this point.

You continue to refuse to engage in an actual discussion but to employ the sort of discussion-extending evasions generally observed in trolls. Your last post is a perfect example. You are suggesting that there is something inconsistent between saying that this isn't a forum for beginners, on the one hand, and that that members are supposed to graciously accept crits, on the other hand, but there is no inconsistency at all. Advanced poets can be gracious in the face of criticism, as you well know.

I honestly get the feeling that you are trying to keep disagreeing with everyone while not actually saying anything.