Mark - yes, you can write parodies of silly crits all day long, and many of us have done it - both the crits and the parodies. But the following also holds true:

- In a free-ranging, broad and bright response to a poem, some silly or just plain wrong or dumb things may be said. So what?

- If the poet isn't incompetent - if he or she have any belief in themselves, or vision of what they want to do with that poem, or poetic sense - the poet politely ignores those crits and goes on. If the poet isn't capable of sorting out good advice from bad, and controlling his/her own poem, if we have to worry about misleading him/her - that poet shouldn't be posting here. It's not a kindergarten class where the teacher speaks truth and everybody writes it down. It's an exchange between peers.

Janet - if we only commented on poems we understood, the poet would have no feeling for how many readers either did not understand the poem, or didn't care. And that's important. It's part of the package. If I post a dramatic monologue, and over half the Sphere totally misreads it, or can't read it, I've screwed up, and I have to know. But if I only hear from the minority that "gets" it - and I give them all little gold stars and pats on the head for paying proper attention - the Workshop has failed me, and I have failed the Workshop, and it's all turned to mush.

But Janet, you already started this perfectly good one.

How does it not apply? Did you not say you wouldn't post anything under the poem because it would unfairly focus the wrong sort of attention on a decent poem?

How could you say that if, as you keep insisting throughout the entire thread here, the poem didn't exist in the first place?

Lo, The poem was merely the incidental spark that prompted my thoughts. It's a good poem and doesn't need to be tied up in this thread. Any other poem might have suggested the thought just as easily. And I edit back to add for clarity's sake that I was not criticising anyone else's crits or responses. I was applying a bit of restraint and caution to myself and thought that as a principle it was worth a discussion in GT.

This thread is incredibly boring, and yet I read it. Why why why? I dunno.

Janet,

May I be permitted a few words that are not strictly related to workshopping here? From a friendly and sympathetic point of view?

I don't think personal cruelty is entirely unknown to the vast majority here, including you(!) on the rare occasion. There may be a few who have never breathed a negative word about anyone or anything on the boards, but I just don't know who they are, and that itself is not a disparaging statement. I'm not going to provide examples of various intensities and varieties of sting, however--and I will concede that almost any of them could have been relatively unintentional. [At this point I'm not sure what "relatively unintentional" means, but let's say it means rash or impetuous, ie unconsidered.]

But the next time you feel the need to start a thread like this, one of way too many, could you possibly try to fight it? Please?

It seems such a waste of time, so amazingly redundant!

Peace,

Terese

Michael, the most vitally useful crits will be from those who do understand the poem. Poets don't write for the masses unless they're in advertising. Are we seeking a company style here? Is it a boot camp where toughness is a basic requirement for recognition?

Recognition by the one reader who gets the point is the best reward a poet can have. The point is that one reader on a forum may represent a multitude of readers "out there".

Most poets of the past would fail the test.


Terese, this thread is NOT about cruelty, personal or otherwise. And I agree that the thread you describe would be boring. Go and write a poem.

Janet,

In your first post you said "Cruelty can be fun." Even though you later said that was in jest, that makes cruelty or the perception of it part of this thread.

Lots of subtle personal statements are made on Erato apart from poem threads, and not to recognize they occur would be a lie.

That's really all I have to say on the subject. No point in getting aggravated about it.

"Cruelty can be fun" was absolutely a jest. The awful (Biblical) solemnity with which it was received by so many suggests a cultural gap. I made a joke which is recognisably a joke in my part of the world. Nobody I know, in Australia or the UK would think for a second that it was anything else. It screams JOKE. The fact that it was entirely misunderstood is a perfect illustration for my point. We often miss the point. We shouldn't rush to judgement about anything. Poetry is full of code. We must be sure we understand the code.

What Terese said about the thread being incredibly boring, and her request that you fight the urge to start one the next time around. And what Chris said, way back when. You've put up about seventeen posts on this thread, Janet, and not a single thing has been resolved. Basta!

Oh fuck this nonsense! Somebody go critique my poem.

Not boring Michael. Uncomfortable.

Rick, I already critted your poem.