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thunderheads bloom prairie dust rises to meet the rain i respectfully suggest that "bloom" might be too lyrical here and so work against the mood of the piece as a whole? distant thunder prairie dust rises to meet the rain much better. but please also try working morre with the thunderheads? switchgrass bows to the breeze seeds scatter I like it through the second line, but the third line makes it merely "cause and effect" which is generally a weak sort of link in haiku overdue rain pounds thistledown into cracked dirt good image, but continuous and so not tension can develop. Hope some of this helps! Lee |
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O.K., let me try this one again with a new middle line: Chilly morning wind long after morning has passed -- the fog didn't lift. Here are two new ones fresh from the redwoods: Knowing they're still green, even when I can't see them -- the redwoods at night. Stepping just beyond the shadow of the redwoods, I notice the sun. A few less fresh ones that I wonder about: The bear and her cub turn their noses to the air -- my blueberry scone. The calving glacier echoes like cannon fire; seal pups keep sleeping. After crashing here, a wave from a foreign shore slips back out to sea. Millions of decades of summers in the making -- this sand in my toes. And three that might be senyru(?): Surrounded by trees, a vacationing artist sketches a cabin. Flushing the toilet, I drown out the trumpeter -- morning reveille. The professor's voice, after jarring me awake, lulls me back to sleep. Thanks again, David R. |
Hi Lee! I know you are leaving us very soon now. I would appreciate if you could honestly tell me if any life-spark is coming through yet in this little group.
steam rising from a tea-cup 4am an old woman bending slow native grasses warm breath on the glass moon in the day your head on my breast moon at noon from leaf to cloud cloud to leaf ... a fish leaps Cally |
Lee - - this began as a jumble of thoughts, then a sentence of just over 100 words, then compacted as follows. Your crit appreciated, thanks.
. a fresh mound barely cold earthworms charged --------- Cally - I very much enjoyed the breath on the glass! David R - your professor: innit just! [This message has been edited by Seree Zohar (edited October 20, 2008).] |
Hi Cally I’m glad someone liked one of my poems..
what I find interesting is how just changing the order of the words/lines an idea is changed enhanced -- look, native grasses bending slow an old woman on my breast moon at noon your head from leaf to cloud cloud to leaf ... a fish leaps I am very taken with this last one STEPHEN-- It would be really good is if a dedicated forum can be opened just for Haiku and all her cousins. I am really enjoying the open handed approach in this thread. it is very refreshing small windows into others minds. it's magic --~~ henie [This message has been edited by Henrietta kelly (edited October 20, 2008).] |
Seree that is a sad poem and it works for me
a fresh mound barely cold earthworms charged |
Hen - the thing is, the image of the leech and the vanilla bean triggered a reaction in me. A memorable juxtaposition, and seems to have loosened a memory in me!
And - wow - I do like what you have done to my 'grass' woman. I prefer it your way - it seems to have more impact, with the woman in the third line. You're right. With the 'moon at noon' - I agree, that one is well worth playing with the line order. I'll play with all the combinations. See what Lee thinks. And I agree with your plea to our captain, STEPHEN! This forum is the best place to be - it feels, as Henie put it so well, openhanded. A real workshop, with everyone pitching in and helping - like being in a sandpit with all your mates when you were a little kid. I will be so sad when this ends. Please, don't make me sad! Also, Seree, this is my favourite of yours so far. Well done on the compression and sifting process to get it down to this! I love how the word 'charged' creates an energy. It sounds electric and voracious at the same time. Cally PS Steve - I forgot to thank you for 'in the moonlight a worm' - the 'ku and the site. That site is actually great, not just for school kids, but haiku infants like me! I'm enjoying it. And I am prepared to up the bidding to $00.20 for the artwork, on condition that the artist keep feeding all of us little 'cats in love' with tasty 're-sauces'!! edited back - I have just seen that Henie has already pushed the bid up to twenty bucks! I'll have to consider my next offer - 'twould be pushing my resources!! [This message has been edited by Cally Conan-Davies (edited October 20, 2008).] |
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Chilly morning wind long after morning has passed -- the fog didn't lift. i am afraid i don't recall the original version, but i will have a go at it. i like the image of the first two lines very well. in the first line, though, i would prefer 'chill morning wind' to 'chilly morning wind'. if you read the line out loud, i think you will see why. and i wonder why you need 'has' in the second line . . . oh yeah, need those syllables, don't you! (sorry, i couldn't resist!) the third line, though, i am not completely happy with. as a statement and a complete sentence, can you see how it is static and brings us to a halt? perhaps you would consider something that will let our thoughts linger but not bring us to a halt? Knowing they're still green, even when I can't see them -- the redwoods at night. i like this. here are a few responses to consider. if i am getting this right, i wonder why you have a dash at the end of the second line rather than a colon? and i feel that 'the' at the beginning of the third line weakens it. please always look at your haiku as poems rather than collections of syllables. and i wish you would lose that damned period at the end! Stepping just beyond the shadow of the redwoods, I notice the sun. i like this except, again, the third line as complete sentence statement. might you find a way to express your feeling without "notice'? it is such a throw-away word--of course you notice everything in the poem otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it! The bear and her cub turn their noses to the air -- my blueberry scone. The calving glacier echoes like cannon fire; seal pups keep sleeping. another sentence/statement third line. After crashing here, a wave from a foreign shore slips back out to sea. interesting Millions of decades of summers in the making -- this sand in my toes. (David:And three that might be senyru(?) http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/smile.gif Surrounded by trees, a vacationing artist sketches a cabin. i think this one is ok, but the first line seems a little weak Flushing the toilet, I drown out the trumpeter -- morning reveille. i am always a little leery of poems that "save up" the context for the third line to effect surprise. you might want to consider changing the line order here. The professor's voice, after jarring me awake, lulls me back to sleep. Senryu, indeed. been on both ends of this, as most of us have! And since you have a toilet senryu, i can't resist sharing one i wrote recently second flush-- the little morning turd cheerfully pops back up now i challenge anyone to make this BETTER by making it 17 syllables! we will let Steve C. be the judge and the prize will be a book of mine, if you can consider that a prize! Lee |
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steam rising from a tea-cup 4am you have the right time here--i will try later to find the poem by akhmatova that explains why. (i think i have the book in town and won't be going into town until later.) '4am' is, however, the context of the poem and i find that it is usually weaker to present the context in the third line. (i just made a similar comment on a poem by david r.) in haikuland, we talk about presenting the images in the order of perception. now it may be true that you didn't know exactly what time it was until later, but you must have known it was past midnight. an old woman bending slow native grasses certainly a spark here warm breath on the glass moon in the day i think this one has potential, but the third line seems weak with its prepositional phrase. might you sharpen it up? your head on my breast moon at noon i like this one a lot, but why not 'noon moon'? from leaf to cloud cloud to leaf ... a fish leaps i like this one, too. well done! Lee |
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I may have missed something somewhere along the line in this enormous thread, but as far as I can tell, no one has taken you up on your poem here. Personally, I like it a great deal. In particular, I like the sense of quiet domesticity in that image of spoon and bowl, the way it sets a scene in five simple words. And then, the image of the couple bending over the pregnancy test, at once gently comic and gently suspenseful--the whole thing comes together in a beautiful moment of sun-filled (forgive the pun) expectancy. That said, I wonder if it may not be vulnerable to "over-reading." Specifically, I'm thinking of spoon and bowl, and what "empty" might be taken to imply. If you wanted to, you could read that image as a metaphor for the larger relationship . . . and then "empty" takes on a whole new set of connotations, skewing the reading of the poem powerfully in one direction. Of course, there's no way of saying what the test result will be, and in that sense, such a reading--a (presumably unwanted) negative result--is entirely plausible. Actually, if the poem is be productively "openended," the possibility is almost required--where would the suspense be otherwise? The thing about "empty," though, is that it seems to preordain the results--as soon as you read the word, and the poem, in that way (empty=barren), it suddenly becomes hard to read it in any other. In other words, it doesn't feel so openended after all--and the reading that we're left with isn't nearly so much fun. Frankly, I wanted to kick myself for seeing it. Anyway, I wonder what you might try here in place of "spoon in empty bowl" that would get around this problem. I still think the breakfast table is the perfect set up, and I like the word spoon. But can you eliminate "empty"? For some reason, I like grapefruit: spoon and grapefruit bowl . . . Just a thought. And of course, there's no saying what an overactive imagination might make of "grapefruit" here! Steve C. p.s. I love your tipsy snail, chewing through the wine labels. It reminds me of something I found in the saijiki just the other day under "bookworm": * shimi no ato / "hisashi" no hi no ji / shi no ji kana (Takahama Kyoshi) trace of a bookworm / of "hisashi," the letter "hi" / the letter "shi" kana Almost untranslatable, but "forever after" for hisashi ("a long time") suggests a way: what the bookworm left: of "forever after" pieces fore and aft (Hmm . . . A little too clever perhaps.) * Note to all: yep, "bookworm" (shimi) is in fact a season word in Japanese--for summer in this case. Sure, the little beggars are around all year, but summer is the traditional season for bringing your books out into the garden to dry them in the sun (another season word, "dog days drying" . . . doyouboshi) and so that is the time when one notices their handiwork. As for why you'd want to dry your books in the sun, well, you'd have to live through a Japanese rainy season . . . mildew everywhere! Yuck. * * * Editing back: Lee, we cross-posted. I claim the honour! I'm the first little turd to pop cheerfully up again this morning. Flush! [This message has been edited by Stephen Collington (edited October 20, 2008).] |
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Lee Lee |
couldn't resist. better? neh, hardly likely. 17? yup
second flush-- the little morning turd won't pass on though paper-shrouded http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/wink.gif [hope you still have time for my earthworms...] thanks for liking that one, Henie, Cally * * * Jan - I think the first two lines of your poppy image have so much potential but are let down somehow by the third: |
native grasses
bending slow an old woman Cally*, I like that one a lot except for "slow". That said, I know you want it to do double duty to both the old woman and the grass. Perhaps, which would also add the element of wind: native grasses bending west and old woman That actually does a triple duty. http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/smile.gif PS, Seree: found yours very good as well. The technique reminds me of Yugen with the last line. I too, though, wondered about "charged". IMO, you're one word away from exquisite. Two inspired ones while I still have the chance: ash wedensday moonspear on sunflowers' testudoed heads dawn to nepal evening milk bottles filled with yak shadow (or: first december a nepal moon under a cow's udder / sunset nepal sun drinking under a cow's udder) Edit*: Thanks for the heads-up, Henriette. It's fixed. [This message has been edited by Chiago Mapocho (edited October 20, 2008).] |
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Anyway, I'm quoting this so that everyone will see. Folks, let's keep him to his promise here--it's an opportunity not to be missed! Here's my attempt. Even if I can't win, I can at least console myself with the thought that I tried: flushed but unflustered and cheerfully popping back to stay . . . undeterred * Here we go, folks. The Master Class thread is now also officially the Swirly Turd Bake-Off thread! Pile 'em on! Steve C. |
second flush--
the little morning turd resists the toilet's summoning [This message has been edited by Chiago Mapocho (edited October 20, 2008).] |
Lee -
earthworms charged I had 2-3 different images in mind, but wanted to imply that the fresh mound is what charges the earthworm's activity (whether the mound is a recent burial, or turning the earth in very early spring, or whatever else) not working? |
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i am very happy it strikes you as comic and suspenseful. and i DO forgive you for 'expectancy'. though you haven't asked for forgivenss on this, i also absolve you for the 'kick' later on--i am sure the ladies will know why. yes, i suppose it is sensitive to overreading--this is one of the dangers of open-endedness. i don't, however, find your second reading objectionable. in fact, i believe other readings are possible. here's one: the pregnancy is completely unexpected and that the 'he' of the poem has been ambushed, after a fashion: he is at her place and she has given him something to eat (please note only one bowl)to settle him in for the news. so please choose which reading you would like--or perhaps even another. at another level, i would hope that at some point the reader might find something significant about the shape of the spoon and bowl. as the matsuyama declaration stated a couple of years ago (i will try to find the link), a haiku is often a symbolic poem. might there be some symbolic level at which this visual image might be read? i hope so. in any event, thank you very much for your reading and your thoughts. we are all here to become better poets, myself included! Glad you like my pet snail--i would post a photo of it if i knew how. maybe i will email it to you and leave it to your expertise? yes, the bookworm haiku is very fine--thanks for sharing it. but not so humorous if it is your book! Hopefully there is room for two turds in this pool! Lee |
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native grasses bending west and old woman this is by Al Pizzarelli from The Haiku Anthology, ed. Cor van den Heuvel: the fat lady bends over the tomatoes a full moon Forgive me! I couldn't resist! Lee |
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Lee P.S. I will follow Steve's lead and recommend my own book! Seriously now, the copyright is owned by Modern Haiku Press, which is a not for profit, so i don't get anything out of it except i have to take them to the post office. we usually sell them for US$20 postpaid. if anyone is actually interested, for US orders $15 to MHP, POB 68, Lincoln, IL 62656 will do it. For foreign orders, the postage would be more, so let's make it $18 in U bills. You might be interested in hearing that we are almost through our second 1000 and will have to reprint it again after the first of the year. http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/smile.gif |
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Yes, I can see it. And yes, "empty" makes perfect sense in that case. It's a funny thing: we sometimes get attached to our own readings of poems as much as we get attached to our poems. I guess my thing with "empty" was just that it seemed to close off (or at least, leave less room for) the interpretation of the poem that I preferred. I wanted to see it as a happy "expectant" scene, and "empty" seemed to preempt that possibility. (I can't get away from the puns this morning, it seems.) As you say though, the poem may have other designs entirely--or at least, be every bit as determined to open itself to multiple readings as readers are determined to find their own preferred interpretation. And that's always a point well taken. Anyway, as for turds in the pool, watch out! We're a regular flotilla of them around here. Ducking out! Steve C. |
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the smell of the iron as i come down the stairs winter evening this was in an anthology issued as a children's book a while back, edited, by the way, by Bill Higginson. The poem is about the smell of an iron for ironing clothes, as i hope the reader would immediately see. but the illustrator for the book, a young woman from san francisco, illustrated the poem with an outdoor staircase with an iron rail covered with snow. boy, did i feel like an anachronism! Lee |
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my rewrite with accent for the toilet-
dawns dunny dinner little blister with big sister way down in the dump Lets raise up the anti Full house flush lay down Ace it with stoned face people -- I think I’m getting false praise for Callys work "the old lady and the grasses one" I did a line change for her, my crap is still near the top of page 6 if anyone can bear to take a look that far back. I am missing posts as well. And I hate missing reading anything in this thread thanks-- henie |
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http://ppqsda.bay.livefilestore.com/...sy%20Snail.JPG Psst. Fellow gastropods! Good times in Lee's wine cellar! * Hi Folks, Lee sent me this to post on his behalf, since he wasn't sure of the tech details involved in uploading images. (He may have been worried that we wouldn't believe him otherwise.) Anyway, talk about gourmet. Lee has his own little breeding stock of pre-soaked escargots in the wine cellar. Bon appetit! Steve C. |
lee just saw this request to fiddle-- so i did
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I think you are missing a perfect opportunity to bring in a new image that of the Grail in place of bowl . I think this meets all the requirements and gives a result of positive in this case.~~henie Filling the rich grail Test of survival what joy you help with results |
Lee, All right, I confess that the strict 5-7-5 and the complete sentences are irresistible compulsions for which I have little defense. I will say they are useful constraints in the first stages of composition for me in that they help me dig for word choice and keep the imagery to a necessary minimum. But you are convincing me to drop them during revision. Excuse me now while I go back over every haiku I have ever written and try to re-flush the turds. Thanks again Lee, sometimes I need to be pushed. I am grateful. David R. |
Lees snail hehe
rusty snail one foot lock jaw no excuse for wine call for all the slugs |
What a great photo! Just lovely. And here's one for the toilet bowl - a different outcome, but 17 syllables!!
whopping morning turd disappears without a flush deep sea diver Cally |
Hi Lee, if you have a chance and if they're not completely unpalatable, could you criticize these?
waiting for their friend the midsummer moon to rise dandelion clocks O lovely stripper-- your skull-&-crossbone panties! And almonds in bloom! Daylight. Summer moon: a wafer of muscovite the sky shows through Shock of love: where the kitten bit a welling red dot |
written before class:
cold bed I need another blanket close your eyes this is my kiss for you ~~~ written for class: brown oak leaf falls on the lake then light rain ~~~ you guys are a riot! please crit thanks |
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I'm sorry, it wasn't Akhmatova, it was Szymborska. This is from Milosz's anthology, A BOOK OF LUMINOUS THINGS: "Four in the Morning" The hour from night to day. The hour from side to side. The hour for those past thirty. The hour swept clean by the crowing of cocks. The hour when earth betrays us. The hour when the wind blows fom extinguished stars. The hour of and-what-if-nothing-remains-after-us. The hollow hour. Blank, empty. The very pit of all other hours. No one feels good at four in the morning. If ants feel good at four in the morning --three cheers for the ants. And let five o'clock come if we're to go on living. (trans. Krynski & Maguire) for another view of 4 a.m., see Philip Larkin's "Aubade", which begins: I work all day, and get half-drunk at night. Waking at four to soundless dark . . . Lee |
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And there is another issue, one that i mentioned briefly the other day, the difference between japanese sounds and english syllables. Here is a quote from Harold Henderson who was a professor of japanese literature at columbia university and the "godfather" of the haiku society of america: "Suppose, for example, that it is agreed to accept the 5-7-5 form as a norm. Should we count "syllables" as the Japanese do, or as we normally do in English poetry? Is is desirable, or even possible, to count syllables in our way? And yet if we count syllables our way, making no distinctions between long or short ones, and ignoring the effect of clustered consonants, are we not being quite heedless of the norm of "duration" in a Japanese line?" Please let me repeat: "Is it desirable, or even possible, to count syllables in our way?" This was published in 1963. Why has the "formal" american poetry community been completely deaf to this informed view for over 40 years? It is beyond me. I hope you continue to enjoy writing (and revising!) haiku. I am not here to impose my view on any poet or poem, but as the poet, you bear the responsibility for every letter of every word in your poems. It is not a responsibility that can be abrogated because the form dictates to you. Hope this doesn't sound too harsh! Lee |
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I will be happy to comment where i can . . . waiting for their friend the midsummer moon to rise dandelion clocks a bit fanciful for me . . . haiku usually try to find interesting things going on in the world and share them with the reader rather than invent relationships that do not. don't get me wrong--if this is your kind of haiku, i am not interested in changing it, but it is not the kind of haiku that i enjoy reading. O lovely stripper-- your skull-&-crossbone panties! And almonds in bloom! i like this one much better than the first one! Daylight. Summer moon: a wafer of muscovite the sky shows through interesting Shock of love: where the kitten bit a welling red dot nice feeling, clearly stated. can you see how extraordinarily different this one is from the first one? Lee |
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cold bed I need another blanket as i mentioned in another posting, cause and effect are the weakest kind of link between images in haiku. that said, because it is a bed, with all that could imply, there are some interesting posssibilities here . . . close your eyes this is my kiss for you not as interesting as the first written for class: brown oak leaf falls on the lake then light rain two images, but there doesn't appear to be much more than a weather report here. if you find significance in this please work to bring it out more clearly for the reader. Hope this helps! Lee |
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I understand everything you said about syllabication, and have read about, thought about, and experimented with ideas about it in haiku for years. I have spent a good deal of time teaching students and other teachers the exact same things about syllabication in haiku that you have repeated here. I have never thought that using 5-7-5 makes a poem of mine more or less "pure" than it would have been otherwise. Counting syllables that way has been a choice I've made, and an informed choice at that. What I meant to say in my post was that I no longer feel that it has been the best choice, and that the reasons for it are no longer present for me. I was thanking you for helping me arrive at that conclusion, a conclusion I may well have arrived at some other way if not through your critiques in this thread. In any case I certainly didn't think you were imposing anything (and I am fairly immune to such impositions anyway). I also never intended to abrogate any responsibility for anything I wrote because "form dictates it to me" or for any other reason. As I said I make choices. If I am persuaded to change my mind, that is a choice I make as well. Also, I am not sure what I have said that might give the impression that I don't think of haiku as poems, but I do, very much so. David R. |
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