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-   -   I hope Tim Murphy will comment (https://www.ablemuse.com/erato/showthread.php?t=25040)

Janice D. Soderling 11-04-2015 08:42 AM

Yes it is, Bill.

The other "Lost Gods" book, the one by Kathleeen Herbert was worth the time and money but really good one was the Branston book. If you haven't read it, I think you'd enjoy it too.

Bill Carpenter 11-04-2015 11:35 AM

Thanks, Janice. I've ordered it from our library.

Angela France 11-04-2015 03:46 PM

I'm so glad you like it as much as I do, Janice.

Janice D. Soderling 11-05-2015 02:23 AM

Angela, I am forever grateful. I treasure this book though I continue to read through a critical lens. But the information on place names, charms, etc. is invaluable. Whenever I am in England or Scotland I am always struck by the language relics I recognize (as, I am sure, are many other visitors from Scandinavia and as are native residents).

One final reflection about the joyous raven. The problem might not lie in the noun "raven" but in its modifier "blíðheort". As we know, the symbol ð evolved as shown in the etymology of our words "death" and "mother":

death
Quote:

Old English deað "death, dying, cause of death," in plura, "ghosts," from Proto-Germanic *dauthuz (cognates: Old Saxon doth, Old Frisian dath, Dutch dood, Old High German tod, German Tod, Old Norse dauði, Danish død, Swedish död, Gothic dauþus "death"), from verbal stem *dheu- (3) "to die" (see die (v.)) + *-thuz suffix indicating "act, process, condition."
mother
Quote:

Old English modor "female parent," from Proto-Germanic *mothær (cognates: Old Saxon modar, Old Frisian moder, Old Norse moðir, Danish moder, Dutch moeder, Old High German muoter, German Mutter), from PIE *mater- "mother" (cognates: Latin mater, Old Irish mathir, Lithuanian mote, Sanskrit matar-, Greek meter, Old Church Slavonic mati), "[b]ased ultimately on the baby-talk form *mā- (2); with the kinship term suffix *-ter-" [Watkins]. Spelling with -th- dates from early 16c., though that pronunciation is probably older (see father (n.)).
In a similar way, (or so I reason), the word "blíðheort" might have evolved. And being not as basic a word as "death" (or "mother, moder, mutter, etc.) might have changed its meaning over time. The seemingly readymade translation "blithe-hearted" might be contaminated.

For in Swedish, Norwegian and Danish, "blíð" became "blid" and the meanings developed in various directions. For instance the modern Swedish meaning is "mild", as in "blidvinter"=a mild winter (above freezing point).

I'm not a philologist but I can refer to the use of blíðe in "Dream of the Rood" L122 (Killings translation)

Quote:

Gebæd° ic me þa to þam beame bliðe° mode, to pray (pret. 1s), happy (is)
and (Glenn translation)
Quote:

I prayed then to that beam with blithe mind,
These two examples serve to illustrate my point. It seems to me that the more correct word here would be "mild" (not happy or blithe) as in the Wesley prayer "Gentle Jesus meek and mild".

OR

the use of "blíðheort" might be ironic (not uncommon in Norse literature) and be a reference to some part of the poem that is now missing, for instance that Beowulf who is (happily) departing is actually sailing into a future adventure that will provide food for the raven.

We know that parts of the poem is missing and we might assume that there might be other missing lines that time or changing context or church censorship or self-censoring by the faithful might have erased forever.

That be as it may, I remain where I began. If meant literally, it doesn't make sense for a raven to glad-heartedly declare the joy of the sky. (Beowulf L 1801-2).

Bill Carpenter 11-05-2015 07:51 AM

Janice,
You may find this of interest, a book review in The Heroic Age: A Journal of Early Medieval Northwestern Europe. http://www.heroicage.org/issues/16/reviews.php#Klaeber

They also publish translations from the period, in addition to scholarly articles. The current issue has a substantial translation from Alcuin.

The next two issues (now accepting submissions) have the Carolingian Era and Occitan Poetry as themes. Bill


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