Anna, Carol--

Okay, let me back off a bit. Certainly, there are the likes of Anna who are working through the MFA system and writing metrical verse. I don't think that the environment is conducive to that as a whole. BUT, it's probably more conducive than it was fifteen or twenty years ago.

Some of my best friends have MFAs... well, reasonably good friends, at least, and one close friend, so I'm not knocking that route, or the people who take it, per se. In some ways, I'd see someone like Anna (already has a well-developed style and enough publication to indicate that someone thinks she's doing something right) as the ideal person to do an MFA program. My objections to MFA programs are three-fold:

1. That they cost too much, as a rule--it's cynical to think that one can pay back massive loans through "creative writing."

2. I'm not sure a degree-job-tenure track model makes much sense for poetry.

3. I strongly dislike the notion that "serious" literature should be campus-centered--as poetry in the U.S. is.

Now, the Formalist Mafia--of course there's a Formalist Mafia. There's also a L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E Poetry Mafia, a Post-Confessionalist Mafia, etc. It would be hard to see there not being these things. So long as someone publishes the key journals, sponsors and judges the key contests, and so forth, there will be poetry mafias. That's neither good nor bad; it's unavoidable. What I'm saying, I suppose, is that there have been some inroads into the MFA, etc. system, and I'm not sure that's a good thing in a broad sense--and yes, one does encounter "formalists" in MFA programs, even if they are an embattled minority. But unless creative writing programs are different than the humanities... everybody's an embattled minority. The Gallophile theorists, the Marxists, the New Historicists, the Annalistes, the humanists, etc.--all feel under threat, rightly or wrongly. And the institution still manages to self-sustain and shuffle along.

In the narrow sense, though, best of luck with the program, Anna.

Quincy

Mark

It goes through phases where the amount of activity varies. This time of year I generally don't hit the forum much - too much going on.

Not too long ago few people were posting on Metrical, and a lot of activity on TDE.

Don't worry, Mark, it's not going anywhere.

"Don't worry, Mark, it's not going anywhere."

Phew!

Thank goodness for that, Jerry.

I have some experimental metricals I would like to test there.

I can't wait to see if they are legal.

http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/smile.gif


(And where is the note to explain your absence, Jerry?)

Well as a reasonably new poet and member, I've learnt alot from both criticism and being critiqued on TDE and plenty from the other boards (especially trolling through Mastery and Discerning Eye).

So long may they flourish! And thanks.

Having posted stuff that is anything but metrically regular ( e.g. Settlement) I think I've had a fair hearing.

I don't know where the hell else I'd go for the info and more particularly the feedback, having no background in studying English or writing for that matter. All delivered in a reasonably fiesty fashion.

Peter, I am pleased to hear of your positive experiences here. And as I said earlier, even though I might whinge a bit sometimes, and have a bit of a hair-trigger on certain issues, I am just coming up to my third anniversary on this site.

It's true, there is more I.Q. per pixel around here than any other site I know.

I am glad you are enjoying it.

LOL - my wife refuses to write one for me.

After a dry spell, I've been taking advantage of a wet season to get some writing done. Between that and a VW I'm restoring, I haven't had much time for anything else.

Thanks for the general good wishes, Quincy!

Here's my take on MFA programs etc. as a formalist within. There are of course all sorts of poetry cliques, from L=A=N=G... to New Formalists, and sure, they have a greater tendency to publish, award and promote from their own ranks. Life is like that everywhere. (NB: These don't necessarily operate solely WITHIN academe, although some/most members may be there.) It's not fair, but there are things you can do about it e.g. start your own journal, and make sure it publishes real criticism and accepts poems on merit. That's what I did.

The more dangerous (in my opinion) thing is the loose grouping of 'poets who teach' which transcends genres but is of course centered in academe. There is a lack of real peer criticism circulating within this group, and I think that's unhealthy. It takes outsiders like Dana Gioia and, yes, John Barr (though I don't agree with everything he said) to smell the shit on the roses, so to speak.

As a qualified engineer turned housewife/mother, one of the reasons I started the MFA was to gain some poetry credibility. Interestingly, a year in, I think the journal has done a better job of increasing my credibility so far. But I'm going to see the MFA through. I may even teach one day. I don't think I'll ever knuckle under to the po-biz mafia though. Fortunately for me I'm financially independent.

Now, where's that cloaking device gone again?

Anna

Anna,

I'm curious as to what you mean by "poetry credibility," and why you felt you lacked it. Would you mind switching off the cloaking device for another few minutes to elaborate?

Rose

Of course. It appears to be broken anyway. Damn Klingons!

I know not everyone is lucky enough to live in an area with a lively poetry scene, but where I live in New Jersey life is pretty cool that way. There's always lots going on in the way of readings, workshops and Open Mics and there are several local poetry journals (Journal of NJ Poets, Exit 13, US1 Worksheets etc. etc.)

As my kids became more independent a few years ago I started to be able to get more involved in this poetry scene. I began turning up to readings regularly, reading in the Open Mics and submitting to the journals. It was clear to me, however, that some form of credibility played a part in securing featured readings and publication. As an example, around this time two years ago a local Reading Series sent out a call for local poets to submit resumes and poetry samples with a view to appearing at their venue. I submitted mine. No dice. This time last year they asked again, and I resubmitted. I don't think my poetry had changed much but my resume had improved to the tune of one Pushcart Prize nomination, one editorship of an e-zine, and one MFA program acceptance. (I think I even sent them the same poetry samples.) I got a reading. Since adding the MFA (and bear in mind I haven't even completed it yet) to my bio I've been invited to lecture locally on formal poetry twice, and I'm supposed to be running a workshop myself in Philadelphia next Spring.

I suppose part of this is in my head but it's as if when I first started going to events I had a sign around my neck that said "Housewife/Mother/Recreational Poet" and now I've got one that says "Editor/MFA Student/Serious Poet."

Does that make sense?

Cheers,

Anna

Not really. I mean, it does from a practical point of view, but I guess the idealist in me is horrified at the thought of your needing an MFA to gain these people's respect and be published by them. If they can't recognize talent without an acronym attached to it, it seems to me their respect isn't worth much, and any validation you get from being published by them must necessarily be tempered by the knowledge that they have no minds of their own. But that's just my own naturally rebellious point of view, and in any case I'm sure that pursuing an MFA has other benefits (like, you know, learning stuff :). Thanks for clarifying.