Eratosphere - Question for Latinists

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Question for Latinists

If this were for home use, I'd trust my own skills and I wouldn't ask, but there's a larger field in view.

I want to say "I give him an epitome". (Note that it's a Greek noun.)

How about: Dabo epitomen ei.

Epitome in Latin is epitoma, but you want the accusative form of it, epitomam: Do epitomam ei.

Duncan

I goofed --- unsure why, I think my eye went to the dative --- my Allen & Greenough has the accusative singular of epitome as epitomen. I'll correct it above.

Interesting how the nominative that I have : epitome, is your epitoma

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allen Tice (Post 241683)

I goofed --- unsure why, I think my eye went to the dative --- my Allen & Greenough has the accusative singular of epitome as epitomen. I'll correct it above.

Employing the Greek form in Latin when a Latin version of the word exists is a dubious practice.

Duncan

OK, let's postulate epitomam.

Now, my next question has to do with elision or nasalization of the final m.

What about epitomam ?

This is meant to be as Horace or Augustus might have pronounced it.

I think both epitomen and epitomam can be used, but if you're looking to elide the final syllable before ei, then you'd be better going with epitomam, which Horace would elide if it occurred within a poem.

Duncan

... or in actual conversation among snobs, I bet. You know, 'putting on the style'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allen Tice (Post 241690)

... or in actual conversation among snobs, I bet. You know, 'putting on the style'.

Well, you've got me there, Allen! I don't know if it would be elided unless it was an actual quote from a poem, but if it's part of your poem then I guess you could pretend to an elision, with all the self-irony that would no doubt entail. Others here may be able to weigh in.

Duncan

What I'm aiming at is a drowsy conversation among the 'lay-about-the-triclinium-peeling-grapes-crowd', who are a little tipsy but all the more energized by that, and who are waving their upper crust accents in the air.

I found I didn't really know the answer to this question, so I looked it up.

Quote:

from Comparative Greek and Latin Grammar (Andrew Sihler, Oxford 1995)

Final -m remains in L, but there is some uncertainty about what sound was actually pronounced. In poetry it does not interfere with elision when the next word begins with a vowel, but on the other hand it 'makes position', like any other consonant, when the next word begins with a consonant. The letter itself is frequently omitted in early inscriptions (even carefully carved ones). In addition to these facts evident in the texts themselves, there are comments by the ancients. Roman authorities bequeathe to us a special term, mytacism (variously spelled), denoting an objectionable mispronunciation of final -m; and there are stray remarks by Romans, more tantalizing than informative, such as Cicero's statement that 'with us' is nobiscum because cum nobis would be obscene.

The ablest analysis of the question pins down the phonetics of -m as a nasalized [w] in careful speech, which in poetry behaved like a final glide and in casual speech styles seems to have dropped altogether. In certain fossilized phrases the complete loss of m with elision of the preceding vowel was established even in careful speech: animadverto 'notice' (animum adverto) or veneo 'go for sale' (venum eo).

Mytacism, then, seems to denote the mistake of pronouncing -m as an actual [m]; before a vowel, for the Roman ear, such an [m] had to belong to the FOLLOWING word: so partem agis 'you play the part', if pronounced [partemagis], could only be understood as parte magis 'in part rather'.

So if they're tipsy & casual, I guess they should be omitting final -m. If they're being careful, on the other hand, I guess they should be pronouncing it as a nasalized [w].

Chris, your reply is exactly what I needed. If fits everything I know and arranges it better than I have in the past. Whether this little sentence ever sees the light of day in context or not, I appreciate your time and effort. Thank you. I plan to save this and possible following posts for reference, and suggest anyone else who is interested do the same.

Thanks!

Somewhere I read that traces of this nasalization appear in modern Portuguese.

Thoughts, anyone?

Allen

I was thinking that the -o in do would also be elided in your sentence, so perhaps you'd rather use dabo or dono.

Duncan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allen Tice (Post 241739)

Somewhere I read that traces of this nasalization appear in modern Portuguese.

Thoughts, anyone?

There is a very slight but definite nasalization in Portugese evident in words like nao ("no") and names like Joao - or at least in the Brazilian Portugese I spoke at one time - but I couldn't begin to tell you more than that. You might try to run this past Sergio Lima, who posts actively on Non-Met, and is a Brazilian native.

Dabo it is, at least for now. Thanks. Good thinking.