A Question About Publishing
 

Perhaps those of you who have had a poetry volume published or have editorial experience could offer an opinion about the text of a book.

What is the best font style and size for a typical poetry book?

Richard

Poetry "books" seem to have a lower limit of 48 pages. At some vague point below that limit it risks being labeled a "chapbook," which isn't necessarily a problem, but most poets prefer to get the credit of "going the distance."

Some people are much more prolific and/or expansive than I am, and occasionally people pass the 100 page barrier. Nothing wrong with that, though it's rare. For most people, as with me, it generally makes sense to hew closer to the lower limit so that you'll only be showcasing your best work. Even with that guideline as your guide, you will probably end up publishing a few that you will later wish that you did not. I know I feel that way, although it is also true that sometimes some of what you consider your lesser poems strike a chord in a way that is surprising. I was stunned by the poem from Secret Language that made it into a collection by the Virginia Poet Laureate of Virginians' favorite poems last year.

If you are using a traditional publisher, they usually have strong opinions on such things and don't want yours. If you are self-publishing, I'd look at books you admire that seem similar in key respects to yours and use one of those fonts.

Good luck!

Richard, I have to think about composition concerns for the day job, so I find them interesting. I started to think about these questions when I began submitting manuscripts, figuring that the more like a book the package looked, the more attractive it would be.

I had to do my own page layout for my first book, and I decided to copy the look of the many Wilbur-winning books I own. The books done by Evansville's two presses are set in Baskerville, usually ten on twelve, if I remember correctly. The typical Able Muse font looks very similar. The trim size for both is 6 by 9.

The Waywiser/Hecht prize books are quite different. Their trim size is 5 by 7 3/4 and they use a sans serif font. I'll get out the type book later today and see if I can identify it. *Editing back: It seems to be Optima. The book that lets me figure this out is Rookledge's International Type Finder.

Unless your poems are very uniform in line length and number of lines, you're probably going to need to experiment with a few different fonts, sizes, margins, and amounts of leading. Long lines (like dac-hex) in particular are a challenge.

Another major conundrum is getting the poems in the order you want, while still allowing the two-page poems to begin on the left and occupy two facing pages. (I couldn't always do this!)

Enjoy the process!

Richard,

I'm currently judging a book prize that has nothing to do with poetry. You would not believe how many poorly printed books there are out there, from reputable publishing houses. The font, the size, the spacing, the margins, the gutter... and I'm not incredibly picky about such things, having grown up on remainders and those tiny print classics bookstores used to sell for next to nothing.

Some of these books are done so poorly they actually disqualify themselves, even though I'm only supposed to be looking at content. I can't bear to read them. I had friends who used to study book arts and book design, but I guess that's not as common lately.

All this just to say I don't have any specific font or size advice, but I salute you for thinking about these things. You'll live with a book for years: best to make sure it's well made. You'll want to be proud of it.

Thanks,

Bill

My own preference--and what we use for The Raintown Review--is Garamond. I can't remember what Seven Towers did for my second book (probably a case of suppressing the memory), but an ugly, overlarge font competed with grainy, dodgy, obtrusive graphics in sabotaging the book. I can barely stand to look at it at this point. The thing is, with desktop publishing these days, you really can experiment a bit without running up huge costs, so no book need ever look like a night orc's sphincter ever again.

Michael: Thanks for your remarks. Much appreciated. Your comments about book length and what to include are very helpful.

Maryann: You are a treasure of information. Thank you for the valuable insights. I greatly appreciate those several technical items you mentioned. Concerning typeface, for example, I’ve noticed that in various journals and poetry books the font size seems both rather small and somewhat faint. This doesn’t make for good eye appeal or for easy reading. Recently, I was looking through a print copy of the Alabama Literary Review, and I was struck again with its visual appeal. The print is crisp and clear and wonderfully readable—a treat for the eyes.

Bill: Nice to hear your thoughts. It’s quite interesting and disheartening to hear that even “reputable publishing houses” can turn out shoddy work at times.

Quincy: I never heard of Seven Towers, but what a shame that publisher produced a piece of crap for you. Thanks for the input about The Raintown Review preference for font.

Richard

It seems to me that a lot of American poetry books are too big. I don't mean too long but too big, too tall. They won't sit on the average shelf. Or perhaps my shelves are too small.

64 pages is the usual length, isn't it? There's some printers' reason for this. Avoid coloured paper for God's sake. My Girlie Gangs was done by Enitharmon in Albertina. It looks very nice

I don't know why, but the paperbacks I own from UK presses, like Waywiser and Cinnamon Press and Enitharmon, are usually in the 5 by 7 3/4 size, while the American books are 6 by 9. Perhaps it's just that paper standard sizes for book production are different, as they are for copy machines; we've got 8 1/2 by 11 and you've got A4, etc. Does anybody know?

It has to do with the number of pages in a gathering. If the number of pages is evenly divisible by sixteen, there won't be a lot of blanks in the last gathering. You can have more than sixty four, but I think Michael's advice about being choosy is valid.

Bill: Thank you for raising the flag about badly designed books. I'm often appalled at how badly designed some poetry books are.

For example, the leading (space between lines) is sometimes totally absent!

I feel for you...

Richard: some publishers note which font they've used in the back of the book. For example, I just picked one up at random "Still Life with Waterfall" by Eamon Grennan and found that it is in Jansen. The font's a good one, though it seems a bit small here, but I desperately need new glasses! However, I agree with Quincy that the font size in "Obscure Classics..." is way too big, which is also hard to read.

I do like Garamond--which Quincy mentions--and actually The Raintown Review has very good spacing. So a good model. And Baskerville is good too.

Basically, my preference is for a nice clean-looking font--not too big or small--with good spacing between lines and letters. I also like something of round-ish font, not too sharp--which is easier on the eyes.

At any rate, Richard, tastes vary, and really, looking at books and experimenting with fonts on your own computer is the way to go.

Charlotte

Richard,

Here's an interesting link to "Ten Top Typefaces Used by Book Design Winners."

Charlotte

Thanks John, and thanks again to you, Maryann, for the additional remarks.

Very good of you, Charlotte, to offer those thoughts and suggestions. You've given a lot of helpful information. In the little checking I've done on my own thus far, I've read some good things about Baskerville font.

Although my manuscript has been shortlisted in a couple of book competitions, and although the senior editors at two well-regarded publishing houses have responded with some generous compliments about my submission, a book deal continues to elude me. I've pretty much given up hope of ever getting a book in print.

Sometimes, however, circumstances change for the better, and there's a strong likelihood that I may have a book of my poetry published by a California based company. If so, I'll have a great deal of input about the formatting of the book, and this is what led to my inquiry on this discussion board.

Thanks again to all.

Richard

As an aside, here's my favorite typeface story: http://www.economist.com/news/christ...ght-over-doves

and here's the result: http://www.typespec.co.uk/doves-type-revival/

You can actually get it here. It seems to be the real thing: http://www.typespec.co.uk/doves-type/

One thing I would recommend you think about is having a book thick enough so that the title and author can appear clearly on the spine. If you only have say 60 pages then increasing the paper thickness can help.
My reasoning is that 'slim volumes of verse' can get lost on a shelf, the potential buyer skims the shelf and looks at titles/authors, and if the book is too small to have any title/author or it's so small it's difficult to read, the potential buyer might overlook it. And although you get nothing from the resale of a book, it is important that a book has a long life so this applies equally in second-hand bookstores and libraries
Regarding a long life, book design is also important, so many books fall apart easily, good to have a well made book, simple things like if it is stapled having rust proof staples or if it is glued make sure the glue is not some cheap brand that only lasts a few years.

I just read your last comment about not getting a publisher. It's pretty cheap to self-publish, the problem is getting a distributor, you can publish as an e-book for nothing, not a cent and by putting it on Amazon, it is out there, hopefully for a very long time and it is one way of insuring your work exists beyond your own possession.

This is a great thread. Thank you, Richard, for starting it, and others for very helpful information.

I'd just like to add one thing from the standpoint of a former typographer. Back in the 1970s and early 80s, I was a phototypesetter in NYC, where I had the privilege of witnessing the exit of linotype and the rush to develop a "better" way, right up through the Macintosh. (Just after that, I had babies, moved to Northern Virginia, and had to start all over again with the computer-based systems that had taken root.)

One thing that may be completely unknown to, or overlooked by, many who started out in the era of desktop publishing is the subtle effect of type size. Before desktop publishing, typefaces simply did not exist every single size. Since each letter had to be crafted and produced, the metal fonts -- and even photographic fonts -- were available only in specific sizes, and the choice of what to produce was determined by classic laws of proportion.

I'm looking for a sample list of available sizes in at least one of the fonts mentioned above, and have yet to find it. But please be aware that one factor that can determine whether a book looks professional or amateurish is the choice of type sizes and the proportions between them. Back when choices were limited, it was not quite as easy as it is today to go wrong.

I'll add more information if I can find it, either from the internet or from the various reference books I have at home. Maybe others here can find it sooner.

Claudia

Edited to say: Maybe rather than "professional or amateurish," I should have said "classic or contemporary." But it depends on what aesthetic one is looking for, and -- as with formal verse -- even when creating something contemporary, it's helpful to know where the form originated.

Thanks Ross and Claudia.

All of these ideas and comments are helpful and appreciated.

Richard

Richard,

Unless you are self-publishing, the publisher will decide on the font. At least that' s been my experience in my three trade books.

If you're talking about a manuscript submission, unless the guidelines specify a font, e.g. Times New Roman 12 pt., you can pretty much do what you want. My personal favorite is Calibri Light.

Best of luck with your project!