Rose Keheller posted this comment as an aside on Deep End a few hours ago:

(OT note: Just a few hours ago I dreamed they had West Chester in Scotland, and we were all there, some of us sitting in the grass near a lake while others were swimming. And I was saying such scintillating things as, "Wow, this is so weird, I can't believe I'm in Scotland!" while drinking red wine from the bottle.)

My questions are - why can't there be a UK equivalent to West Chester?

If there was, who do people see as leading UK metrical poets able to lead workshops?

Where would be your ideal venue?

I can only but admire the tenacity of some of the spartan-minded poets in Rose's dream...swimming in a Scottish lake (Loch). We're a tough lot we formalists!

On a serious note, I do think Poetry UK PLC is more resistant to metrical verse than in the USA. I have more success in US magasines than British.

Alan

Alan, never before had I understood how Public Limited Company is such a seriously poetic phrase.

Editing in a bit of etymology wot I can't resist:
'-chester', as an element in place names in Britain, is from the Latin root casta which more or less directly refers to a walled town or encampment. The '-chesters' of the UK were all Roman military stations. There were no Roman military stations in Scotland (Not North of Hadrian's wall, anyway).

[This message has been edited by peter richards (edited June 18, 2006).]

Hi Peter,

How do you explain Antonine's Wall?

cheers

Alan

An Australian West Chester would be held at Oodnadatta.

And perhaps all six of us would attend.




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I STILL don't get how poeple think there's widespread "resistance to formal poetry" in the UK. Are we incuding Ireland?

I wonder if there's a distinction to be made between the poetry magazines in the UK and the publishing houses. I can barely think of a poet here who has published a collection that doesn't have anything in form, or with rhyme...

Possible speakers or workshop leaders (I'm including on my list people who have an interest in or whose work seemes to be engaged with form - not just those who only write in strict form, metre, rhyme):

Patience Agbabi
Simon Armitage
Ciaran Carson
David Constantine
Wendy Cope
Greg Delanty
Carol Ann Duffy
Ian Duhig
Douglas Dunn
James Fenton
Kathryn Gray
Sophie Hannah
Tony Harrison
WN Herbert
Seamus Heaney
Geoffrey Hill
Christopher Logue
Roddy Lumsden
Derek Mahon
Glyn Maxwell
Paul Muldoon
Sean O'Brien
Don Paterson
Peter Porter
Craig Raine
Maurice Riordan
Eva Salzman
John Stammers
George Szirtes
Tim Turnbull

This list, which is of course incomplete, based as it is on my bookshelves, includes academic as well as more performance-based poets, and many people on it also run poetry workshops. I can't think of many poets in the UK who would primarily identify themselves as "formalists" or who tend to judge the value of a poem only (or primarily) by its adherence to form, metre, rhyme principles.

I think that if those were your criteria it might be hard to find really leading practitioners - but then again James Fenton read at West Chester this year, and of course Michael Donaghy - who also wrote free verse, prose poems, etc - also used to go there.

You might also find this - while not strictly a formalist venture - interesting:
http://www.poetryconference.org.uk/

KEB

Erm, I look it up in Wikipedia and so on, and then I stand abashed and corrected.

I always like to think of Scotland as the never invaded - so can we just call it a troublesome and lingering incursion?

Hi,

I'm a Northumbrian, born about 40 miles North of Hadrian's Wall, so I too like to regard myself as a barbarian unsullied by classical culture. Sadly a Roman road runs a 10 miles to the west of the town I was born in. Lets both agree it was just an extended incursion.

cheers

Alan

The Romans certainly got around. Archaeologists have been digging up Roman villas in Ireland recently.
I had no idea, though, until I read Peter's post, that they'd been to Pennsylvania.
You learn something new every day.

Hi Katy,

OK! there are LOTS of British poets writing metrical verse.

I suppose my point was about magazines, I seem to have more things published in print in America than here.

I do think that the tradition of metrical verse does tend to get underplayed. I bought the Bloodaxe Anthology of 20th Poetry for my daughter - it missed out Betjeman altogether!

I've seen the details of the poetry conference at Cambridge - but it is not a practioner's event:

I quote the aims:

The primary aim of the conference is to stimulate academics to engage with and write papers on British and Irish contemporary poetry written originally in English. In order to encourage consideration of issues of practice, there will also be readings and lectures by leading poets.

I can imagine myself as a writer enjoying West Chester, it feels inclusive; the Cambridge event has an altogether more academic tone, I think it might be fairly intimidating for anyone without a string of publications in academic journals. There are poets in attendance, but they are reading rather than running workshops it seems.

It's a shame that some of the leading creative writing university departments such as Warwick or East Anglia don't do something along the lines of West Chester, but then again, they are not particularly active in the small mag. market, unlike their American equivalents.

The fact that there are an increasing number of UK based moderators on the Sphere I think is an encouraging sign, we may get a UK practitioner based event one day maybe.

best wishes

Alan

[This message has been edited by Alan Wickes (edited June 18, 2006).]

Once a term, for another 3 years, Christopher Ricks gives a lecture as Oxford Professor of Poetry. He arranges a reading at Balliol for an American and English poet each time. You'll find much formal as well as free verse. There are also other readings during his weeks' tenure. These are generous and inclusive in that he tries to bring writers who haven't had much notice, as well as ones who have, and everyone is invited (no fee) to come and drink and listen and meet.

The only difficulty is the lack of publicity. But if you search on the Oxford site for the lecture (at the exam schools), the reading is that same week and you can contact Balliol for details. I take it that the almost invisible announcements are the British way.

Best,
Marcia

Well, they're probably the Oxbridge way... don't want the hoi polloi coming in now do we!

KEB

Young is a relative term, but while I was still living in the same town as my primary school, two other young poets and myself decided to go along to a meeting of the local poetry society. It was easy to find because it was in my old primary school. We were not members so we weren't allowed in. We went to the pub instead and composed something to declaim to the exiting members. We'd no doubt have declaimed it to the exciting ones as well, had there been any, as we were very even handed like that. We never got to know about such qualities in the members, however, as (I assume because we were young and crass), we were utterly ignored in spite of our efforts to gain attention.

I don't know if it means anything at this great remove, but I have no expectations of the establishment.

Thanks for posting that link, Katy. That conference looks excellent. I'm making plans right now to be there for the reading as I'll be in Italy around that time. Are you going? It would be nice to hook up with some UK Eratospherians.

Well, I'd have thought that the closest thing to West Chester in the UK was StAnza, which takes place in mid-March in St. Andrews in Scotland - which may explain Rose's dream.
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/standrew...za/index06.htm

Duncan

[This message has been edited by Duncan Gillies MacLaurin (edited June 19, 2006).]

Okay hi guys, I'd just like to state here that when I made the remark about the hoi polloi earlier it was purely and merely a joke about what I took to be an amusingly old-fashioned Oxbridge reluctance to advertise (so common, don't you think), possibly in the same vein as the U and Non-U conversation that was going on elsewhere last week; and to distinguish between Balliol College and the rest of England (and indeed Britain) which are full of advertising, having no such scruples.

Personally I'd love to be able to go to the readings and even hear Ricks' lectures, were I in Oxford.

Greg, I'm not sure yet whether I'll be there. We can keep in touch on it.

KEB

Firstly, This imaginary conference/festival thing sounds brilliant. All we have to work out is who is going to sponsor it.

Secondly, say Warwick and UEA are the best creative writing unis, even then, are they worth going to, ie. would one learn something about writing there that couldn't be picked up on one's own, whilst doing a pure English degree?
I'm suddenly having to decide what unis I am going to apply to and I was thinking about having some creative writing courses on my list.

Thanks,
Eloise

Eloise, are you doing your A levels now? I mean, are you about to go for your undergraduate degree? I'd say do English lit for a BA - you can always do a creative writing MA later. The grounding in reading and critical awareness has to be worth it for developing your own writing.

I'm not sure about the absolute merits of a creative writing degree; it's a great way to build a network of creative peers, and mentors as well, though of course that can be done in other ways. If I were doing an MA in poetry to be honest I would probably go to the Royal Holloway, which is where Andrew Motion is based now, but I don't really know about undergraduate courses.

If you plan to stay in London and want a workshop to go to, send me a pm and I'll let you know what's around. Have you checked out Roddy Lumsden's evening classes at City University?

(And yes, it can be combined! Depends how much you want to do it. A friend of mine, back when Michael Donaghy taught the classes, used to commute down on a Wednesday evening from Oxford, where she was doing her degree, to Michael's class. And I hear Roddy's a great workshop facilitator.)

KEB

I'm just at the end of my A levels and about to take a gap year (I wanted a year out to write and travel). I was always going to apply for English Lit, with Oxford as my first choice (if I get my As) but I have 6 choices and I was thinking about putting a couple of combined English/CW courses on there. I probably won't though, I wouldn't want half an English degree and I can always do workshops or whatever in my own time, if I need to.
I'll look up Lumsden's workshop, it sounds very interesting, and as I said, I have a free year now so I should be able to find the time to go to the odd one!
Thanks so much for your help,
Eloise
(English A level tomorrow--Blake and Measure for Measure, nervous insomnia kicks in.)

I'd say study Chinese and business.

That would be remarkably sound advice if I didn't want to be an academic, it's fine though--I have a written contract with a friend who is studying international economics that she has to keep me fed and watered.

Eloise

And where can I find such a contract?

I notice one of the speakers at the UK conference is "Professor Robert Crawford." Is he a professional imitator, or is ours? In any case, if Bob didn't talk to much, it sounds like he'd merit some special treatment.

Eloise

Apply to St. Andrews!

Duncan