Whitworth Over Whitman: A Poem by Sally Cook
 

There seems to be a lot of love out there between poets these days. Check out this poem from The Society of Classical Poets.

I love how Mr. Whitman is looking at Mr. Whitworth!

Cheers,
Greg

Ms. Cook seems to be confusing Walt Whitman with William Carlos Williams. I'd say that John is a good counterpoint to the latter.

Easily done, Sam, easily done. Who will tell her?

I posted a comment on the website, but someone else had pointed out Cook's error before I got there. Bizarre. However, John is a better English poet than either Whitman or Williams.

I never thought Sally Cook was confusing Whitman with Williams, but just thought that she was using both as exemplars of free verse. She was attacking free verse by attacking them. But whatever one's personal tastes (and I uphold everyone's right to having personal tastes in poetry), making the equation of free verse=bad, formal verse=good is oversimplifying. Furthermore, switching to "wit and humor" as being synonymous with formal verse is ridiculous. That is a whole different issue. Has she never read Billy Collins or Tony Hoagland, both of whom are witty and humorous in free verse? How about Ogden Nash, who may rhyme but who is often very far from metrical?

Susan

I get the feeling you are saying this as much to insult Whitman and Williams as you are to compliment John. I will leave the compliment to John unchallenged and merited, but I rise to declare Whitman to be one of the greatest poets who ever wrote in English, and Williams to be something other than chopped liver. (And of course, for better or for worse, they are two of the most influential poets of the past 100 years or so).

What Susan said.

Bob, Whitman and Williams are vastly overrated. Prose and babble.

Whitworth is worthy.

I think Sam qualified his comment with "English." But he certainly can clarify that!

It's all good company in my estimation.

I am continually amazed and awed at the minds that inhabit this sphere. I'm a little bit like Woody Allen: "I'd never join a club that would have me as a member", but happy to be in the company of those here nonetheless.

You may have seen this recent Volvo commercial featuring Whitman:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQyOY-5LLmI

Upon the first several hearings I thought what a weak set of lines.
Further listening has failed to raise my opinion.

And yet, oddly, I found the longer version much better--whether it's the larger sampling of lines, or the more compelling video images and story line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBt_niVG4sM

I don't think Bob is overrated.

Probably not! But who's Bob?

Has Bob ever been rated?

Roger, let me say it again. Listen carefully: John is a better English poet than either Whitman or Williams.

The Whitman quote in the Volvo commercial begins with "Afoot." It might have been better used in a Rockport commericial, though I don't think I've ever seen a Rockport commercial. I've never ridden in a Volvo either, now that I think of it, but I have walked in Rockports. Their motto:

Luckily, we've got just the shoes for the road ahead.

Thought better of it...

Yes, I think I am a better poet than Whitman or William Carlos Williams. Maybe as good as Richard Wilbur but less good than Robert Frost, Wallace Stevens and the great Emily. Stevens, to my taste, is the greatest poet who wrote in English in the Twentieth Century. But hey, it's the Twenty-first century now! Sam and I are stepping out. And Annie. Who could forget Annie.

Well, I’m a vastly better writer than you scribblers. And what’s up with all of those double-ues? Whitman. Williams. Wilbur. Whitworth. Never heard of ‘em. Sounds like end times in the alphabet.

Not to mention Wallace (first names count). If only Millay could turn her M upside down, she'd be on John's list as well. Though I'm pleased to see Emily didn't need to engage in such trickery. As long as we're spouting opinions, I'll spout that Emily was the greatest of them all, apart from Whitworth of course.

I should add that Whitworth is as well a better Indian poet than either Whitman or Williams. He is also a better Scottish poet than Wordsworth.

Well, Sam, you must think the poor guy deserves all these backhanded compliments. Even Ben Mazer didn't get this kind of treatment!

With friends like Sally Cook....

You fooled me, Sam. But in my defense, one of the definitions of English is "of or relating to the chief language of Great Britain, the U.S., etc." (Merriam-Webster). But I should have known that wasn't what you meant.

Mike Juster opened a thread some time ago asking which poets will "survive" in 25 years. I don't recall any sphereans mentioning John's name. Maybe I have that wrong. I don't know how to capture old threads. Maybe someone else does.

John, you must have made quite the impression at West Chester. Ha! Otherwise, you are receiving a lot of early Valentines.

Cheers to you, John.

Greg

The binary thinking of the poem troubles me. Can't I enjoy formal verse AND free verse? Why must I choose one or the other? Can't I appreciate Whitworth without pissing on Whitman and Williams?

Must everything these days be divided into This and That--with This associated with all that is good, and That associated with an evil so great that civilization depends on its complete repudiation?

Also, whatever happened to "Show, Don't Tell"? Why not show us how wonderful formal verse is by actually writing a wonderful formal poem (preferably on a topic that more than 0.0001% of the population actually cares about), instead of telling us how wonderful formal verse is in a preachy, petty temper tantrum that happens to be rhymed and metered?

Not-so-great formal poems proclaiming "Free verse is not so great" have an insurmountable pot/kettle problem.

What Julie just said. I remember first reading Whitman and Keats when I was about 16 ('Song of Myself' and 'The Eve of St Agnes' specifically). Both blew my mind. They still do. I had little context and no idea they were exemplars of some great poetic divide. I just read the linked poem. It's unfunny and pointless.

(And, as has been pointed out, with its wheelbarrow and plums tellingly inaccurate!)

[Neverminded.]

Reading it again, I suppose she isn't confusing Whitman with WIlliams. She's blaming Whitman for giving birth to 'all that free verse clamor' of which Williams' two most famous poems are held up as representatives. It's all so petty. No more sophisticated than a bloke in a pub dismissing all modern art by saying 'my five year old could paint that stuff'

The first two poets who made an impression on me were Keats and cummings, with Roethke following close behind. I also liked it all, though I must admit that my poetry-writing education was far too biased against formalism and I managed to major in English at Brown University without anyone once making even the slightest attempt to teach me what an iamb or a trochee was.

Uh, ok. I guess The Divine Comedy is non-fiction.

http://classicalpoets.org/10-greates...-ever-written/

Just spent about ten minutes looking around the web site. Highlarious--unintentionally, of course. If someone can invent a drinking game based on its contents, though, it'll have earned its keep.

Prissy Classical allusion--drink a beer.
Putdown of free-verse poet--SHOTS, BRO!
Overt racist/homophobic/misogynist statement--sober up, look sheepish and embarrassed for all concerned.

Or something.

I'm glad Quincy said what I merely thought.

My favorite from the archives:

On the Protesters Filled With Hate

By Bruce Dale Wise

And while American airports were filled with screaming hate,
Chief Petty Officer Will “Ryan” Owens met his fate,
caught in a raid against Al-Qaida’s force in Yemen’s love.
Who gives a damn for him who gave the last full measure of
devotion to his country, fighting those Islamic cells,
who out of earthly paradise keep striving to make hell.
Thanks for the righteous people who protest in safety’s screen,
who do not give a damn for those who fight to keep them free.
Chief Petty Officer Will “Ryan” Owens met his fate,
while thousands of Americans protest in screaming hate.

Anyway, I'm sure Salemi has the site bookmarked for when he tires of xtube.

Laughably, shamefully, when I didn't know what I was doing, had no guidance, no poet friends, no Sphere, I found it on Duotrope and sent a poem off to this site without actually looking at it.

And it got published.

I figured the journal would fade to obscurity and close or I could just ignore the poem because who goes to that site (and it wasn't a good poem--it reimagined the Chuangzi dream question in bad iambics and awkward rhymes...), and then the inauguration poem hoax happened. Which was funny and all, but really brought home how dumb that decision was.

I learned from this that you really need to vet the places you send your poetry to rather than merely wanting a pub.

Lesson learned, but woof.

Walter--

I think this site might be Salemi's xtube.

Walter, you should link to the poem above, rather than quoting it, because how can we fully appreciate its brilliance if we're deprived of the edifying comments?

Sally,

I have arrived much more than fashionably late to this party. Congratulations on the publishing of your most enjoyable poem.

Andrew, you might want to avoid this one, too. I hear 'extreme vetting' is back in vogue.

Greg

Free verse poets have certainly been known to say some asinine things about rhyme and meter. But do they waste their time writing clumsy, self-important vers libre manifestos about how much formal verse sucks?

One thing Cook demonstrates with this characteristically witless, soulless poem is that Whitworth and Whitman are both better poets than she is. Her line "Feel sorry for poor poets blaring pompously, full blast" is an inadvertently apt auto-critique zinger.

Every well-written formal poem is a compelling argument for the virtues of the literary tradition it embodies. Bumf like Cook's sells us short by telling the world that formalist poets are insecure cultists with nothing to say beyond empty boasts about being better than the other sects.

Who's superior now?