The History of Eratosphere
 

I've stopped short of asking this question before as most members are interested in writing, not discussing. But the sun's peeking out and spirits are rising so here goes:

The first 15 years or so of Eratosphere, I'm interested in learning more about that period. I've heard it could be intense at times, what about the earliest years?

I've also heard about Stallings, have there been any other names who reached beyond a small following?

The first rule of Fight Club is: you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is: you DO NOT talk about Fight Club!

:cool:

Every few years or so, there is a thread bemoaning the fact that the Golden Age of Eratosphere is over. I'll try to dig up one or two. Those usually name names of Illustrious Sphereans of the Past.

[Edited to add: The three I just looked at were way too contentious to exhume — which actually says quite a lot about the history of Eratosphere.]

I've done quite a lot of digging in the archives so I have a sense of it. Shortly after I made this thread I realized that it might be hard to discuss an arena full of eccentrics colliding with each other. I guess one hopes for the positive elements, but then it's not really a true history.

If you have a chance I'd love some links via PM. I really am interested even if I have to wade through bickering.

One leading question I can ask: what years were the golden age? Why did that stop? Many members aging and perfecting the craft?

I'm guessing most people don't want to look back, Nick.
There were some "flame wars", bannings, and some bullies.
I cried a few times over some of the treatment I received as a new member. None of those responsible are here now, so although we have fewer active members than "back in the good old days", things are much calmer.

Personally, I can't understand why you'd want to wade through bickering that happened years ago, but that's up to you, of course.

Nick,

Here are a couple of threads in which you'll find people arguing that the Sphere was much better back in the day, that actually it's just as good as it ever was and is not in decline, that we should try to find ways to attract more people, that we should avoid finding ways to attract more people, and so on. As with most threads in General they go off at all sorts of tangents. And not too much is said as to why the Sphere might have declined, if indeed it can be agreed that it did.

The Decline of the Sphere from 2020

The State of the Sphere another "decline" thread from 2015

This thread contains a few thoughts on the decline of poetry forums (fora?) in general.

Whether the Sphere had a golden age or not, and when that was, will depend on the criteria one uses. For example, I find the Sphere has generally become more a pleasant place to be over time, in that incidents of people throwing their weight around, making personal attacks etc., have decreased significantly since I first joined. In that respect, at least, the golden age is now :)

Matt

That's fair. I'll be honest, I was a little star struck when I showed up. Plenty of great writing, smart people, and occasional mention of the creative energy of past years. That's more the angle I was hoping for, but the sense I'm getting is that it wasn't actually that great back then. The busier years likely coincided with the period when forums were popular. Not better, just more active.

I've had the same experience at another forum. It quieted down over time, but the rise of social media filtered out those not interested in depth. That left a wake of calm and more mature posters, which is the feel I get from Eratosphere now.

Anyway, points taken, no need to dredge it all up if it was more traumatic than inspiring. I get it. On the threads, also not the angle I was hoping for but they were offered and I am interested in opinions on the early years. Granted, I know some of the threads are painful reads.

Reading through the 2020 thread that Matt posted and I wonder if the other side of this place quieting down is that people really did master poetry. After a while the effort needed to start new critique threads overrides the return, unless you're doing it for entertainment.

As Julie mentioned in the thread some people then run off and just have fun with it rather than worrying about critique. Almost exactly what I'm doing now and it's only been a few years.

I may regret speaking up here, but I feel compelled.

On the acknowledgment pages of my books, I always thank the poets of Eratosphere. But what I'm most grateful for has never been critique per se, but encouragement and, most of all, general poetic education.

When I came back to writing poetry after a long time away, I knew a lot about really old poetry (being a medievalist), but so little about anything after the Modernists that I was actually unaware of Richard Wilbur and Anthony Hecht, just to name a couple of examples. The Sphere corrected that.

The many threads on the Masters board that ask for favorite seasonal poems, favorite short poems, favorites on this or that theme, discussions of particular meters and particular forms--all those were tremendously valuable. And they're still there, so they still are.

The intense and sometimes distressing arguments, political or poetic, that sometimes drove people away were far less important in the long term than the sharing of great poems.

So was there a golden age? I can't say. I only know that being here a lot between 2006 and 2011 meant everything to my writing.

My two cents.

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This is what sustains me, too, Maryann.

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The arguments of the old days, even when they became petty or vituperative, were, for me, just as instructive as the calmer archival education. The reputation of the Sphere rested firmly upon such an unsparingly critical approach, and on the full airing of opinion which often compelled response from one. It did get messy, but the poetic results were often dazzling, and the lessons learned were invaluable to me. It changed me, thickening my skin without making it impermeable. I see nothing even remotely comparable to that raucous goldmine going on here these days, nothing to distinguish the Sphere from any other site. But perhaps lightning only strikes once.

Nemo

I am not sure how other folk use words, so:

argument: emotionally unstable verbal fight,
disagreement: calm discussion involving a difference of opinion,

Disagreements are useful for grasping different points of view, which may give one ideas, for say, revisions of a poem, or another way of analyzing literature.

For myself, the only reason to engage in arguments is for entertainment. That is to say, one stays calm but just treats it as a form of internet sport, verbal jousting, where everyone brings their best game and their best bar, and the game is to get the other person to quit or back down. Arguments almost always involve some fight over (perceived) social status, and this is where, for example, you get some long established folk lording it over others, especially newbies to the forum

For myself, whatever you may gain from arguments is never worth it, but disagreements may be useful for sparking new thoughts.

Generally, for me, one observation about the current state of Eratosphere is that after a while, folk get comfortable not really giving critique, and so it becomes passing poems between one's friends who have already settled in the appraisals they tend to make, and how far they may be comfortable in potentially upsetting one of their mates.

Thus I always welcome fresh blood not already entangled in the conventions and relationships of the board.

I believe it, although I wonder if this site is still the strongest poetry community to be found online. In terms of archival quality, skill of the poets who are still here, and the critique that's still happening. I have no doubt that standards would have been higher in the early days, but much of the critique I've received since joining has been quite strong. At least IMO.

Really, I can say something similar. What I've learned since joining in 2021 has been invaluable, and wouldn't have been possible without this community. So it's not all in tatters.

I also agree on the point about general poetic education. A lot of what I've learned since joining hasn't only come from critique, but more generally having access to a community of poets and an archive of the conversations that have been had here.

I agree with this. Counterintuitively, some of the most helpful critiques and comments I've received have come from newcomers. Either because they've given me a raw, unfiltered view of how my poem looks to them, or because they aren't tangled up in any preexisting norms.

Erato history
 

Undoubtedly, as Eratosphere's first moderator, I have a somewhat sentimental view of the history here. In the first few years I remember it as a small, closely knit group; our reputation rose due to the courtesy and content of the critiques. As we mushroomed, those qualities continued with the addition of moderators Tim Murphy, Alan Sullivan, Alicia Stallings & many talented others.

In my view, which many do not share, the addition of General Talk, without a restriction of the talk to poetry, made Eratosphere a platform for politics. Soon the civility was gone, Alex rarely enforced the ad hominem rule, and many of the key people left.

I myself was driven off for many years by bullying driven by anger & extreme politics.

Those early days sound to me to be attractively heady, sans the anger and bullying. The web in 2000 was a wild new place for poetry to manifest itself and the stars aligned to become the Eratosphere. I, likely, would have been given short-shrift in the early days of verbal melee. But maybe not... I think the Sphere has, for now, reached a tenuous balance. It continues to ebb and flow, attracting new members but retaining only those who have a thirst for robust, thoughtful, civil discussion about all things poetry. There are so many less than satisfying poetry forums, imo.

Every now and then someone refers to that period of the Sphere’s existence with the same mixed feelings as you do. Every so often, too, someone laments its passing. For some who were driven away by the vitriol it sometimes spewed, it’s hard to recover. The best one can do, I think, is to turn the wound into a scar. And avoid it like the plague it is going forward.

I am a poet with only modest skills. There are many poets here more talented than I. But I am a poet who easily soars when engaged in conversations about the art of poetry. I have so much to learn and the Sphere has been a living library for me. It is a bastion for poetic thought that I visit like I do a favorite shop with an ever-changing inventory but consistently high-quality items.

I was involved in the early days of the TEDTalks discussion forum which ultimately tore itself apart and shut down in 2018 due to the vicious negativity. I made a few friends there that I’m still in touch with. I was wounded there more than once. I might have wounded someone. Those wounds are now scars.

Michael, on a lighter note, I received your children’s book Girlatte recently. It's a wonderful children's story that will be nested in the Easter basket of my grandchild.

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