evin asked in general, for a link discussing Senryus. I've found this link pretty good that not only talks about Senryus but also Haikus and Tankas.

http://www.shadowpoetry.com/resources/haiku/haiku.html

I like the explanation of these forms, in this link. It demystifies these forms and explains the crucial differences of each one besides giving plenty of examples.

However, in getting this link here and reading the notes on Lees G.'s comments on haiku, I gotta confesss that I still follow that 17 syllable count even though I don't have to.

It's like I'm afraid the Haiku god is going to come out from a bush and whack me in the back of the head with his fan, if I go under 17. So silly, I know. I don't have to do it in three lines either but I still do.

I've noticed too that some poets, who do haikus, fall into the same mind set. They stay with the three lines, 17 syllables and they know they don't have to.

Recently I read a fellow poet's haiku. It had 16 syllables but it was perfect. He asked me if it was ok and I said "Yes. It's great!" Then he posted back. "No, no it's not great. It's 16 not 17. Damn!" He changed it and his haiku was not as strong as before as evident of the lukewarm reviews he got later.

Just thought I'd share this little story cause I write haiku's all the time and I got to slap myself when I write one that has all the elements in place but reads like the back of a cereal box because of it.

Anyway, above is the link. Would love to hear your "haiku nightmares/stories." http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/smile.gif




[This message has been edited by Yolanda Cruz (edited March 25, 2005).]

Yolanda, You really struck a cord with your confession that although you understand that the modern haiku in English doesn't have to be 5-7-5 that you have a very strong emotional need to hold to that standard. That has been my reaction exactly. Recently, a face-to-face workshop I attend tried haiku at my suggestion. I found myself very dismayed by those poems that failed to meet the strict standard and ended up in a heated argument with one free-verser who refused to write any at all because he said any idiot could count to seven.
Will be interested to read your work and to see further discussion of these forms here.
Mary

My feeling about the deviations from the 5-7-5 haiku is rather the same as it is about non-pentameter unrhymed sonnets: It may be "technically correct" for the person immersed in the poetry scene who feels comfortable discarding such old fashioned and artificial conventions, but to both the lay reader and the experienced reader, who've read respectively a handful and a ream of works that conform to the traditional expectations, anything much outside of those simply won't satisfy.

Actually, the more haikus I do, the more I can easily disgard the 5/7/5 rule. At the end, it's not about the syllables but whether you hold true to the essential distinguishing features that mark a haiku from just a plain three line stanza.

After all, as pointed out in several major haiku links, the haiku was based on the Japanese language which has more syllables which is why they developed the 5/7/5 rule. English has less which means fewer words are needed to complete the image.

In the modern haiku you see now, most are 17 syllables or less. Even fewer follow the three line format or give a seasonal reference.

However, I agree, most readers are not that well verse in Haiku and feel comfortable with the 5/7/5 format but then most readers weren't comfortable with Haiku, in general, until the last 20 years.

You can still complete the desired haiku image, even easier and more naturally since you're being driven by conciseness and not a count.

Having heard all the arguments over the [many] years, I have agree with Kevin.

The challenge and satisfaction comes from completing the effect within the restrictions of the form. Anything else seems to be cheating, just to make the writing easier; as Yolanda appears to admit when she stated it's 'easier' when not driven by the 'count'. A sonnet would be easier, also, if one did not have to worry about how many lines there were, or the number of feet per line...

If you don't work within the parameters of the form, it's just free verse. It may be good free verse, but let's at least use the proper nomenclature when discussing it.

Otherwise, we're just Westernizing one more Eastern concept in order to please ourselves, and to make it 'easier', while trying to convince everyone it's still the authentic article.

[This message has been edited by Jerry Glenn Hartwig (edited April 03, 2005).]

Most of the Japanese writers I know think 5/7/5 is too long for an English haiku, because it takes more syllables to say anything in Japanese.
3/5/3 is fairly popular. I personally tend to use 3/5/3/5/5 when writing tanka.
Whatever syllable count you favour, you should stick to it, in my opinion, because haiku/tanka are strict form, not free form.
Often you'll see Japanese poems translated in free form, but please remember they were written in strict form.
Some Japanese writers say it's a waste of time attempting Japanese forms in English, because there is no possibility of capturing the tone, the flow of the language they were designed for.
Best regards,
David

David

An elegant solution, as long as you stick to the same form. That's nothing I would personally have a problem with. I half-heartedly agree with the comment on using Japanese forms in English, but one can make the argument about applying Greek-based scansion to English poetry. Yet it seems to work, and there is a pleasure in creating something powerful in such minimalistic forms.

Domo arrigato

David - Thanks for repeating the primary reason why the 17 syllable count is not necessarily applicable to Haiku written in English. It seems that the link, provided in my first post and a further explanation of this point, provided in my post dated March 30 on this thread, went unnoticed by some.

Strange but I just recently submitted a poem, on this forum, with 4 Haiku and I purposely did it in the 5/7/5 - three line format, complete with seasonal reference. Very neat but strangely not satisfying to me. One or two were but not all four.

Goes to show that you can have all the eliments in place but the poem can just be technically perfect but cold. Further reminds me of that cliche:

"The surgery was a success but the patient died."

I think when I do the revision, I'll try less syllables - not because it's easier (working with less does not make it easy) but becaue the Haiku image may not need more.

Nah. Just didn't agree with it. Just because one posts a link to someone else's opinion doesn't make it right. Doesn't make it wrong, either.

Makes it an opinion - not fact.

David was not saying the same thing as your link. He said to choose one structure, which you think works best, and stick to it. A different message, imo, completely.



[This message has been edited by Jerry Glenn Hartwig (edited April 05, 2005).]

There are a couple of huge problems making an English language haiku that haven't been brought up here.

One is that the Japanese language has no stresses. English has natural stresses. So in a Japanese haiku the syllables all have subtle relationships with each other. In an English language haiku the three or four strong stresses in 17 syllables tend to overwhelm the whole poem, unless the poet can keep strong stresses out of the haiku. The words "autumnal equinox" would work better in a haiku than "autumn leaves" for example.

And in Japanese every syllable is the same length. What really needs to be considered is not that the English language has few syllable but that the lengths are so variable. The English language has this monosyllabic base which if it could be used by itself would work great for a haiku. One might try imagining a native Englishman teaching a Norman how to write haiku with the French words being introduced.

It might be possible to make a rule for an English lanuage haiku to count a long syllable in English as two syllables in Japanese and short syllable as one. So for example the words "axe handles" would count as four haiku syllables.



the autumn leaves
at autumnal equinox
are yellow edged









[This message has been edited by albert geiser (edited April 08, 2005).]

albert

The words "autumnal equinox" would work better in a haiku than "autumn leaves" for example.

'Autumnal equinox' works better than 'autumn leaves' in any poem, but not because the accents (not stresses) are less strong. They both have level 4 accents. 'Autumnal equinox' has a smoother rhythm because of the mid-level secondary accents; 'autumn leaves' jumps up and down from the bottom of the scale to the top, bumpily. Also, the primary accent for the former phrase is in the middle of the phrase, while in the othe it's more obvious a the end.

Stresses are variable and subject to the speaker's interpretation.

Huh?

I can think of dozens of uses for "autumn leaves." It's a pretty phrase with a clear image, and aside from cliche factor, works wonderfully. Put and article before it, it's a double iamb: "The autumn leaves/come falling down." Swap it into a line of dactyls for a spot of interest: "Rustling tumbling autumn leaves shivering." Make it part of an anapestic sub in a line of iambs: "Above the wall/the autumn leaves fall."

Kevin-

I agree with you.

I've changed my mind about autumnal equinox. Too cold a phrase, just a point on the calendar. Autumn leaves, because of the image, and regardless that the short syllables in autumnal equinox almost parallel Japanese, is better I think.


the autumn leaves
this equinox is freezing!
are yellow edged




[This message has been edited by albert geiser (edited April 12, 2005).]

I've ice-covered buds
this autumnal equinox -
I fear they'll Fall off.

*grin*



[This message has been edited by Jerry Glenn Hartwig (edited April 15, 2005).]

Yo Jerry,

Bit of a typo on the first line. No biggy but..


Of ice covered buds
this autumnal equinox -
I fear they'll fall off.

I understand why you capitalized fall for emphasis back to the season but not capitalizing it makes it more subtle.

Know you did this for fun really. Remarking in the same way. Note the smilies. http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/biggrin.gif http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/biggrin.gif

Yep, yep...I agree with Albert. Saying autumnal equinox is cold. Autumn leaves better. Sounds more human. Better yet, an actual image of fall not yet done to death. Hard work to come up with fresh images.

Ok. My fun Haiku under 17 syllables:

Rustle of leaves
a rake left against a tree:
Steelers versus Jets

An American haiku:


the last ice filled Bud
an autumnal tailgate
I fear she'll fall down




[This message has been edited by albert geiser (edited April 17, 2005).]

Yolanda

No typo there: I have ice-covered buds...

You know..those little hangy-down things????

Called a contraction *grin* (Pun intended)*

*My buds contract when they get cold - a contraction...



[This message has been edited by Jerry Glenn Hartwig (edited April 20, 2005).]

Oh you poor man. I hope you're seeing a doctor for that. http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/biggrin.gif

I did. He said a cure wasn't worth the effort...