When I lived in England I refused to have a holiday in Spain which was then under the rule of General Franco. Other friends lived there because it was cheap.

As a singer I refused work in South Africa because of apartheid. Other British singers learned difficult roles there and advanced their careers.

Some young Australian friends have gone on a scuba-diving holiday in Fiji. Fiji is ruled by a government which staged a coup d'etat. A relative of mine is part of an international diplomatic mission to discuss the need for elections in Fiji.

Nemo writes beautiful poems about Burma. Most people I know refuse to go there because of the military government.

There is one point of view which encourages communication between people. There is a lot of sense in that. It doesn't seem to be working in Burma (Myanmar).

I still think I was right not to go to Spain and South Africa. It's a huge subject.

Since the Olympics are being held in China I think it's very important to take part in them and to engage with the Chinese. Not all situations need the same response.

Too right!

I agree, Janet.

I try to avoid all fascist or police states, like Burma, Singapore, China, etc.

But I don't avoid these places on principle, but out of a visceral loathing of all totalitarian states, and a strong desire to have nothing to do with such places.

But I admit that I was in Greece in the early 70s when the Junta were running the place.

How does China differ from all the other places you've mentioned?

I think you're sending me up Mark ;)
I've been to Singapore (passing through), I did perform with a Greek soprano who was very much in line with the Greek Colonels. I missed out on Greece and regret Greece, though not that Greece.

My aunt, wife of a politician, had lunch with the colonels (on a state visit) and during an awkward pause in the conversation she said: "Tell me, when are your next elections?"

If any of you have seen the Zeffirelli film "Tea With Mussollini", think Maggie Smith.

[This message has been edited by Janet Kenny (edited July 18, 2008).]

It's huge and affects every country and economy. It has had a bloody awful last 200 years and seems to be moving towards something better. I'd rather we helped that to happen than reduce the planet to war and misery and starvation.

I feel the opposite. The Olympic preparations made by the Chinese government are so horrific that I wish everyone involved would boycott the event.

This is not about the Chinese people, but about their government.

The trouble is, the Chinese people have found such hope in the "acceptance" of being given the games that it would sour the whole population if we expressed our feelings in that way. In Sydney the entire Chinese population,(large) expressed solidarity with China when others turned against China. They weren't just manipulated or fearful for families back home(I'm sure some were) but genuinely were insulted by what they saw as insulting behaviour towards themselves. Some third generation Australian Chinese felt like that.

Well, it all depends on the degree of dictatorship, doesn't it? Is Mugabe a dictator? Rigged elections, you say. But many charge that the US 2000 presidential was rigged to bring the present regime into power. And the 'anti-terror' laws in US, UK and Oz are pretty repressive: you can be gaoled without trial for expressing an opinion, as you can in many other 'democracies'. Not to mention the NSW laws forbidding citizens to 'annoy' the massed armies of mediaeval pilgrims running amok in Sydney (some of whom graffitied the Hyde Park War Memorial with 'Ratzinger rules' --barely mentioned in the media, though--imagine if Muslims had done the graffitiing!). Anti-annoyance laws indeed! I think all modern nation-states are at oligarchies at the very least, and that 'Democracy' is a myth. Maybe the 5th-century BC Athenians were a democracy, but even they had slaves and powerful oligarchic families. We have, as I say, varying degrees of oligarchic rule from country to country.

Here's one US ballot though that seems above-board, so to speak:

George W. Bush Sewage Plant plan is on ballot (thanks to pwj for the link.)

Fair enough Paul. I think it's the mindless holiday in the sun or the shopping holiday that offends my inner puritan she said in her cheap tee shirt made by child labour. We're all in it together.

I understand what you're saying, Janet, and I respect it. I just can't go along with it.