[Laura Heidy-Halberstein]

Originally Posted by Clive

And sometimes, sexism isn't just in the eye of the beholder, sometimes it actually really genuinely does exist.

Sometimes it does, Clive, I've not denied that part of it. I'm only saying that sometimes it doesn't. If I wasn't acknowledging that it takes place I wouldn't have said "often it exists only in the eye of the beholder...."

My point is that when anyone of a "speciality" group bands together it generally has a specific agenda, it generally is looking for instances which will prove the need for the group's existance and it generally does not bode well for anyone outside of that speciality group - and thus it calls attention to the differences and perpetuates the ill will which exists and might disappear on it's own if left to languish and die a natural death.

It seems to me that whenever a group closes rank (such as Poetic Justice has done by almost immediately becoming a closed board with admission policed by the administration) they cut not only everyone else but also themselves off - and I wonder at the equality or the fairness of that - to memver and non-member alike. Same goes for woman only magazines and anthologies and retreats, etc. etc.

Treating people as badly as you feel you've been treated in the past is still mistreatment - and it's childish. It's grammar school mentality - "You won't let me in your club so you can't come in mine." It smacks of reverse-sexism and it's just as ugly as the plain old sexism was in the first place.

Plus, it cuts off the many fine men who have no problem with woman - and it plays right into the hands of those few men who do. They don't want you around in the first place so by making new places where only you can go - you effectively give them exactly what they want.

And I know the invalidation of which Eva speaks, from my experience as a gay man. For instance, my anger gets dismissed as me "having a hissy fit" or "being a drama queen" by people who want to shut me up, regardless of whether I've got a point or not.

I can understand that, Clive - but I have to ask, is it only dismissed as a "hissy fit" or "drama queen" by straight people or do gay men often refer to other gay men in the same vein? I only ask because I know women who routinely refer to other women as "bitches" and "ho's" and "brats" and "snots" and so forth and so on. It's not always us against them - it's often us against us. Or, more honestly, me against you. One on one, so to speak. (and I don't mean you and me in particular, I just mean people on people as individuals - not necessarily of the opposite sexual persuasion.) It's just that we're touchier about it when it comes from someone outside of our own comfort zone.

Maybe it's just me - and that's fine if it is, but I simply don't understand having all these speciality poetry groups floating around. I get notices of contests and magazines and anthologies for women only, for gays only, for transgendered people only, for hispanics only, for blacks only, for lesbians only.....and on and on and on. Not one of those groups takes submissions from white heterosexual males - and yet white heterosexual males are the very ones we're always accusing of all the isms. And yet, not once have I received a notice of a poetry contest or magazine for white heterosexual males only. Not once.

I'd be interested to know if anyone here has ever received such a notification - especially since those are the very people we are railing against the loudest.

Because if there aren't any out there aren't of those people who run those contests and ezines and magazines and anthologies cutting of a large section of submissions based on nothing more than an outright ism?

And isn't that hypocrisy at it's very worst?