Mark,
A promised, I’ve come back to give you some specific responses to the questions you put to me. The core issue, it seems to me, is your objection to the comments I made about, your/the liberal, philosophy that under-girds the plank of the anti-Israeli position and from which position you make your argument. No, I didn’t attempt a mindmeld when I identified what your philosophy was as you had already provided the information way back in this thread. It’s a position all liberal people take when the issue of Israeli aggression is discussed, both generally and in regard the Lebanese conflict in particular, namely:
Quote:
Would it help if all perceived members of the 'I hate Israel club' preface each post in future by making an official declaration? Something like:
1. We find some of Hezbollah's methods (such as suicide bombing ) to be obscene
2. If it is proved that Hezbollah are using people as 'human shields' we find this obscene too
3. We find what we perceive to be Israel's heavy-handed use of force from the beginning to be, if not obscene, deeply disturbing
4. We believe in Israel's right to exist
5. We believe broadly in Israel's right to defend itself (even if we disagree about its methods)
6. We believe Lebanese AND Israeli victims (especially, though not only, civilians) are equally lamentable.
[rough draft]
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Your position is that all fair minded, humane and reasonable people could sign their name to this. It is, broadly speaking, the liberal position regarding Israel’s conflict with Hezbollah. It’s strongly implied that those who can not put their name to it are beyond the pale, religious nutters, etc, etc, with whom it would be impossible to come to any agreement.
I have made my position clear in regard to my bias in favour of Israel, at which you expressed such ironic surprise. Perhaps I was too reticent; if you had called me a Zionist I would not have blanched. I have intimated in an earlier post how I came to hold such views and which subsequently provoked a degree of ridicule. Although I am no longer a member of the Brethren Movement and I am now what some describe as a ‘devout atheist’, I still have some respect for their beliefs, one of which was a high regard for the Jewish people, their traditions and culture. Their sympathetic attitude is primarily based on the theory of Dispensationalism, but that’s another story. It leads me to my point- no member of the Brethren could sign up to your Liberal Charter because they are pacifists, many of whom refused to fight against Hitler in W.W.II, who shouldered the same hatred the other Conscientious Objectors endured.
The pacifist position is the only, truly tenable, neutral stance to take, you should not confuse their voice with yours or mine; neither you or I belong on that hallowed ground. What we have to do is decide which shit stinks the most and deal with it. So, first hole in your neutral Liberal Charter.
Not all people think Israel has the right to exist. Not all of them are religious nutters and ideologues but intelligent and reasonable people. They believe the whole idea of Jewish sovereignty is an aberration and an absurdity, given how many generations of Jews have lived under the sovereignty of others. They believe, given the magnitude of the injustice they inflicted on the Palestinian people, that there is just cause for the dismantling of the Jewish state. There are some who think it preposterous that you even have to mention Israel’s right to exist in the first place. Second hole in the Liberal Charter.
Genocide is bad, war is bad, murder is bad, rape is bad, dropping litter is bad... yes, we all agree on what’s bad, but we don’t all agree on how to differentiate between the really bad shit and the not so bad shit. We can’t differentiate between such things on a linear curve until we reach a point when we all agree it’s as bad as it gets. We can’t open with a Katusha and raise the bid with a cluster bomb as if we’re playing a game to rules and there’s some referee somewhere.
The only statement that holds water is number 6.
Far and few, far and few,
Are the lands where the Jumblies live;
Their heads are green, and their hands are blue,
And they went to sea in a Sieve.
Stephen